Short Grips and Longswords

[Matt Shields]

What are the advantages of having shorter grips on two handed swords?

[Allen Johnson]

Just a few little things that come to mind...
It's generally true that the longer your sword is, the more it will weigh. There are, of course, exceptions but not normally if its the same weapon. So you are cutting down a little on weight.
Also there are several techniques that illustrate an opponent moving in and grasping the other guy's handle. With a closer grip, this is not so much of an option. Granted he could grab your hand, but it would be easier to remove someones hand from yours as opposed to your grip or hilt. Just what came to mind...
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/VadiNewImages/Untitled-4.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/VadiNewImages/Untitled-5.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/150.jpg

You get the idea <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Shields]

I considered that plate in Goliath before posting, but grasping the opponents grip in combat seems all too uncommon to negate the length.
It seems to me that, like the taller man, the longer grip has far greater leverage advantage, which would aid binding ability greatly. But that could have to do with the difference in earlier/later styles of fencing. Maybe it's just the manuals getting to me, but it really does appear to me that later cutting swords have much longer grips.

It also seems to me that with a longer grip you have greater control of the blade, and thus more accuracy. Thrusting also seems a bit more comfortable with longer grips.

These were the best reasons for shorter grips that I could think of:
1) Perhaps having your hands closer together creates a larger arc, and thus a more powerful blow.
2) Shorter Grips may be faster. (A wild guess)
3) More suitable for one handed use. (I’m really just basing that off Hand and a Halves)

Please correct me on those, I haven’t really thought them through, and I have very limited experience in handling fine replica’s and historical pieces.

[philippewillaume]

If we are talking of the relative position of the hands on the handle.

I think there are two main factors.
The natural trajectory imparted by the movement
You would say that a closer grip favours more circular blade motion and a spaced grip favours more linear motion.
I.e. if you hands are spaced you strike will be flatter and if you hands are closer your strike will have tendency to be a more crocked or convex.
But that is very marginal and really at the hand of the trajectory when you extend your arms. Evidently those effects can be counter acted. i am talking about the natural tendency of the blow.
So it kinds of make it easier if you have a more circular based style (i.e. with stepping that are more to a side) to have a short grip and a wider grip if your style is more linear based (with stepping that more forward than on the side).

And the type of blade (well more how they feel in the hand)
I find that close grip/circular style is better with " heavy blade&amp;#8221; with the centre of balance is relatively far away enough from the handle that using a wider length the blade would still feel &amp;#8220;heavy&amp;#8221; (it so much how the blade actually weight but how it fell in the hand) . You sort of take advantage of the impact effect and since the wide grip does not really give you any real advantage in blade/tip mobility.
(thrusting can be a bit awkward but you can briefly take a wider grip so I do think it is really an issue as such)

On the other hand if the blade is more balanced towards the handle, the wider grip is more advantageous because it is easier to move the tip around and it is not such a percussive weapon.

All that being said, it is all relatively marginal, from my own experience you usually pick up one style/grip according to the weapon you have started to train/learn with and that good enough to work with the others types of blade.
We could say that if you learn/interpret manuals like Dobringer or Ringeck with a blade like early mid 1300 you are more likely to have a short grip and stepping more to the side. If you start with more pointed blade you are more likely to have a more wide grip and a stepping much closer to normal walking type of stride.

But to be fair if you are training under someone you will take his grip/style what ever the weapon and it is going to work all the same.

I hope It made some sens
Ps if I am not mistaken, Dobringer actually says to have close-handed grip and to step to the side


philippe
HEMAC

[philippewillaume]

Hello Allen, mark

I do not think that it had and influence on wrestling, there is no real difference grabbing the grip or the wrist. (Ringeck wretling at the sword goes for either).
I think they both can be defended against as easily, in Ringeck you do those wrestling only when you are in advantageous position (which is negating the possible defence so it is kind of equivalent if you see what I mean).

About he weight medieval sword are quite light and all things being equal and the longer the handle the closer the centre of gravity will be to the handle. So the &amp;#8220;lighter&amp;#8221; the sword will fell.

The length of the handle itself can be deceiving because you can have a grip just before the pommel (i.e. holding the pommel in you hand). On my Atrim I can either hold it with the two hands close together and that fills the hilt or as by the pommel and it become as if it was a 3 hands hilts length even though the hilt is only two hands long.

Even though I am not sure that as the time progressed the length of he grips on sword increases
The type XX both in the 14 and 15 cent or the type XIIIa 13-14 cent or the XVIIIb mid 15 early 16 cent seems to have the same hilt length and about the same blade length (the type XX seems to be relatively longer in blade and in grip).
I think that as time progressed the grips( hands position) got usually wider.

If we look at fiores books it seems that the grip is relatively open so

At the end, I am not sure if the narrow grip came from a heavier weapon, or to have the feel and look of a messer/single handed sword, or from cut orientated fighting style.