Reach Vrs. Zwerch

[Matt Bailey]

http://www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t17.htm

It seems what Talhoffer is showing us here is feint against an opponent who responds with Squinter or possibly Zwerchau. In response to this response, the man on the left keeps his distance and strikes the man on the right with extended arms. Extended arms outreach bent ones; Ringeck has counters along the same general lines.

My question is: What is the "trick" to keeping your opponent from doing this sort of thing all the time in sparring, especially as so many modern Medieval swordsmen do alot of "void and counter" anyway? Not so much when you're responding with Zwerch to an oberhau he iniates mind you, but more in situations where you're trying to break Vom Dach or Pflug with Zwerch or Squinter?

Cheers,
Matt

[Casper Bradak]

What can I say? There's no trick to it really. Train hard, master your perception, timing and distance, technique and war-work. It'll get easier.

[Matthew_Anderson]

I think the man on the right is responding to an Oberhau (which turns out to be a feint) by transitioning to left Ochs, essentially one of the four Versetzen that Ringeck writes of. This can be a very efficient technique as you ward off the blow and put your point in your opponent's face at the same time. If however, he steps offline and cuts, not to your upper opening as you expected, but under your sword to your arms, this is the result. I've had this happen to me a few times in sparring. How to prevent it? Be quicker? Be smarter? I think it's a matter of timing really, if his feint is too slow or improperly timed, you'll see it and drop into hengen or counter some other way, or you'll displace his sword as you transtion. If, on the other hand, he does his feint well and you commit to countering what you think is coming, you lose. Perhaps when I've practiced for another 20 years, I won't be fooled by feints anymore <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Bailey]

Eh, let me see if I can clarify the point that's really bugging me.

Take your sword and check the reach you have on a zwerchau. Now take your sword, and check the reach you have on a simple oberhau, mittlehau, or thrust with the arms extended. Even if you REALLY extend the arms and put the hilt way out from your head while doing a zwerch, the reach of a zwerch is still somewhat shorter than the reach of a simple true edge cut or straight thrust.

Now imagine my opponent stands in Vom Dach, and I decide to "break" his guard with Zwerchau, per Ringeck's instructions. If I throw the Zwerch and he responds by doing nothing (Great!, but unlikely) or, more likely, by passing forward with an oberhau, then it works exactly the way it's intended. Even if I do not hit the side of his head, I create a threat and make a bind with his blade that I can work from.

However, if my opponent decides to pass backward and strike after my coming in with a cut or thrust with extended arms, it seems that with my intrinsically "shortened" attack, he should be able to suceed against me every time. This seems even more likely if he throws the sword out in a one-handed attack for even more reach, ala "das gayszlen".

Now considering that "void and counter" is a very common sword fencing approach now, and probably was then, what point am I missing that makes zwerch a safe way to come to a crossing, as Ringeck claims?

Cheers,
Matt

[Randall Pleasant]

Matt

What makes a Zwerch safe to use is the same thing that makes any cut safe, having the right distance, the right timing, and using it in the right situation. True the Zwerch does not have the same reach as an Oberhau. Thus, regardless of whither or not you step off line, a Zwerch is a cut that you have to carry in closer to the adversary. If the adversary decides to pass backward and throw a counter cut to your Zwerch then the problem is not with the Zwerch but that the adversary knew what you were going to do. In other words you most likely gave away your intentions – and nothing gives away a Zwerch like a thumb on the flat of the blade. Take a look at the videos from the ARMA Gathering videos . At the bottom of the page there is a video called "Jake N. plays against Bart W." that shows just what you are talking about. In case you are wondering, the two people sparring are both senior ARMA scholars (referring to knowledge, not rank). The person who won the match is Jake Norwood, one of the leading authorities on Joachim Meyer. The other person, who threw the Zwerch, is Bart Walczak who was a co-author with Grzegorz Zabinski’s in the recent publication of Grzegorz’s translation of the Codex Wallerstein and is one of the leading authorities on the Codex Wallerstein.

Remember that the Zwerch should be just one of a number of counters you learn for dealing with an Oberhau, use the correct one for a give situation. The Zwerch works best when the Oberhau is a verticle Schaytler/Scheitelhau. If the Oberhau is more diagonal then consider Ringecks Zornhau to Zornhau techniques.

By the way, if you ever make it over to Dallas give the DFW study group a visit.

[JeffGentry]

Matt i believe that when Zwerch is used like Meyer state's in the right situation your reach is not much shorter unless you pull in when doing the short edge cut instead of just flowing off from one cut to another


here is what Meyer say's, this is from schielhau.org page 12 of the Meyer section there is an accompaning picture if you want to look.

Zwerch, Thwart
You send yourself into the Thwarter thus: assume the primary stance of Wrathful Guard to the right (as shown in the previous chapter), that is you put your left foot forward and hold your sword over your right shoulder, as if you would strike a wrathful strike, and when your opponent strikes you from the roof or above, strike closely with your short edge, breaking against his strike from below, holding your hilt high above to displace near your head, and strike to close by stepping full onto his Left side, thus displacing and closing against the other as shown by the left background figures of illustration H. This can be executed to the left thus striking his right side with a changed point, in that you will strike against his right by engaging with the long edge.

The above example give's you a follow on action to strike after the displacement, and remember like Meyer say's "Before displacing guard yourself. Place yourself for advantage."
you alway's need to remember what option's your opponent has from what ever gaurd/stance he is in and try to responde accordingly.


(Hmmmm maybe i should take my own advice lol <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

Hope this help's in some small way, i am becoming a fan of Meyer.

[James_Knowles]

the reach of a zwerch is still somewhat shorter

This assumes two opponents of roughly equal size and agility.

If you really want to bake your noodle, play with this with really short vs. really tall, or really agile vs. a slower person.

if my opponent decides to pass backward and strike after my coming in with a cut or thrust with extended arms

I don't know that the problem is as big as you're making it. Have you tried these things with sufficient speed and intent yet (as much as your control allows)?

If he cuts at you from the roof, your sword should be high and ready to catch his. To thrust from the roof, well he has to rotate through the ox or something similar, which can be time-consuming (gosh, we're talking deciseconds here).

In either case he'll likely traverse rather than retreat. That's how I'd interpret plate 17; diagonal motion rather than backwards.

If know his options, you at least have a chance at reading him and countering his counter.