binding and winding

[JeffGentry]

Hello everyone

Two week's ago at our study group practice we were doing Kron to stop a verticle cut, as i was watching Jaron and Jamie, it dawned on me that all the defender had to do after his kron was raise his hilt and drop his tip and step into a thrust this would happen very quickly, we have now actualy incorporated this into our kron, it work's fantastic the opponent has almost no defense to it because it goes to attack so fast and is so close.

Now in my mind winding and binding has to be very fast, we as a group don't generaly do alot of winding after a bind, because the bind is there and gone so fast, i am wondering if anyone else does a significnant amount of winding to thrust or if this is something that is only learned with much experience.

I am also wondering how much this was done in actual real combat i could see men with alot of experience being able to do this and not even hesitate, i could be wrong does anyone have any insight on this, i know a few master's do discuss this in there writing, am wondering how many people have actualy tried this in sparring and how successful it has been.


Am just curious it seem's phenomonal to me, i am thinking i may need to go do some reading to try and incorporate more of this into what we are doing, it appear's to be very viable.

thought's/comment's please, am very curios to hear other's thoughts, experience's with this.

[Alfred Wong]

Just curious, what's a Kron?

Well before I know what's that, from my very limited experience, winding must be done quickly, very very quickly. Coz' the attacker will possibly do a Double in sparring...

[Lance Chan]

If I remember correctly, it's the "crown" of the book you've lent me. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Alfred Wong]

In that case, I have no comment and recommendation on this technique, personally I seldom parry with crown... It's a bit dangerous.

[JeffGentry]

yes kron is crown.

I am just wondering in general how many people do wind or if it is not something that is not very prevalent.

I have read some text were it is covered and never gave it a whole lot of thought, it just occured to me and i have been thinking about it for about a week and a half and just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

[philippewillaume]

hello
Jeff, I do not think you are doing anything wrong with what you think about winding actually I think you do what Sigmud says.

Winding is like kissing you need to be two to make it happen and worthwile.

I study only one manuscript (Ringeck) and I believe that you that its fundamental to ringeck that if it is not there do not force it.
I think its erroneous to see the bind/wind has a German trademark.

Ringeck tells us that all the all the pieces are subordinate to the 5 strike.
Das ist der text von den stucken der zedeln.
Zorn haw, krump, zwerch, hat schiller, mitt schaittler, alber; versetzt, nach-raysen überlauff, haw setzet, durch wechsel, zuck, durch lauff, abschnie, hende druck, heng, vnd mitt blössen, schlach, vach streych, stich, mitt stossen.
Glosa.(18 r )
Mörck, hie werden genampt die rechten haüptstucke der kunst deß langen schwerts. wie yettlichs besunder haist mit dem naman, daß du die dester bas versten kündest. Der ist sibenzechen an der zal vnd heben sich an den funff hewen an.
That translate in:
Here are the pieces of the manual
Zorn haw, krump, zwerch, hat schiller, mitt schaittler, alber; versetzt, nachreisen überlauff, haw setzet, durch wechsel, zuck, durchlauff, abschnie, hende druck, heng, vnd mitt blössen, schlach, vach streych, stich, mitt stossen.
Mark, here are named the true master strikes from the art of fencing with the long sword, (yettlichs from eitel) which are hastily separated/presented by name so that you can better understand their secrets. (as in break/crack; verstend=the darkness bestern). They are 17 in number (an der zalh=in number) and they are abeted/suborned to the five strikes: (anheben= anheben, anstiften)

my understanding is that your aim should be to have the five strike succeding. the rest is there just in case your oppoenet is not a good boy and refuse to get hit (there is people like that around)

on the winden specifically ringeck
Hie mörck ain gutte lere.
Das öben mörck: haw, stich, leger - waych oder hört. "In des" vnd "vor", "nach" on hurt. Dein krieg sich (21 r)nicht gauch. Weß der krieg riempt oben, nyder wirt er beschämpt.
Glosa.
Daß ist, das du gar eben mörcken solt - wann dir ainer mitt ainem haw oder mit ainem stich oder sunst an din schwert bindet -, ob er am schwert waich oder hört ist. Vnd wenn du das empfunden hast, so solt du "in des" wissen, welches dir am besten sy: ob du mitt dem "vor" oder mitt dem "nach" an in hurten solt. Aber du solt dir mitt dem an hurten nicht zu° gauch lassen syn mitt dem krieg, wenn der krieg ist nicht anders dann die winden am (21 v) schwert.
Here mark a good lesson
Above all mark : strike, thrust, lay weak or strong, Indes and Vor, Narch without impacts/hurdles (on=onhe hurt= hürde), Your Close combat without foolishness/foolhardiness, He who stay tied up (riempt=riemen) above in Close combat, will be humiliated below.
Glose
That is that you are to notice quite plainly: when you have bind with an other by a strike, a thrust or in any other manner, If he is weak or strong at the sword, and when you have sensed that, so you are to know &amp;#8220;Indes&amp;#8221; what is the best for you, if you are to attack him with the &amp;#8220;Vor&amp;#8221; or with the &amp;#8220;Narch&amp;#8221;. But you are not let yourself come to arm by foolhardily engaging in Close combat when the Close combat in nothing more than winding at the sword.

Ie if winden is not there (Ie do not match the why and how defined in the manual for winden) do not do it.

[philippewillaume]

Hello again
About the kron.
Like ringeck I do not use it
The blow you describe is akin to the kron haw in Meyer

I am not a Meyer expert so i do not know the tactical conditions where and when he does that. (And I have to say that I cannot see how one can prevent what Ringeck advocates)
That is exactly what I use to demonstrate or for people to train winden/hangen/schnitt

In ringeck style
If we are the one doing the kron /kronhaw
Our opponent just has to continue his movement forward to schnitt against it. (The schintt being an exaggerated winding to quote Sigmund)

Or do any of the three way of winding (if he raise his hands, try pass over your blade or try to pass under) according if we are going to the left or to the right with the winding starting from the kron.
Whatever way we start to wind from the kron, our opponent can schnit or wind and protect himself (our sword will end up outside his).
Our only way to make it happen is to be quicker/more on the ball than him.

In any case regardless of my perceived crapness of the kron (I have been wrong a few times before), It is a good tool to play with windings.

Philippe

[JeffGentry]

I see what you mean Phillip, i guess it is one of those thing's that you just have to know in that second it happen's and just do it is more an instinctive type of thing, oh and i have been on Meyer for about a month now lol <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />. Is it that obvious, just seem's so much easier for me to understand what he is saying and then lear how to do the movement our group though is pretty ecclectic here in Columbus, i think we all use diffrent manual's and throw it all together, lol. Meyer doesn't do much with the thrust or winding though.

[James_Knowles]

I seldom parry with crown... It's a bit dangerous.

I'm becoming of the opinion that most of these techniques are not really dangerous, but situationally appropriate, and must be used as part of a fluid whole.

From what I've seen, the crown is not a static parry, but part of a larger action. In the NTP 1.0 I attended a few weeks ago, Stew showed us a number of deflections and follow-ups to the crown. Before then I also thought the crown was dangerous.

After the demonstration I was practicing the crown with a timid young lady. I suggested that she continue the motion to deflect instead of just block. She proceeded to effortlessly throw my oberhau aside, ready for a coup de gras. We were both astonished at how easy it was.

Pictures of that part of the workshop may be found in pages 5 and 6 of the pictures on our study group's web site (pictures 38-48). Click on "Pictures" -> "31 July NTP 1.0" -> "5"

The second picture start that section of the workshop, with Stew and Eli standing there, and goes through to top of the next page of pictures.

[James_Knowles]

i am wondering if anyone else does a significnant amount of winding to thrust or if this is something that is only learned with much experience.

From my perspective this is learned because all action from the bind is indes, which to be effective in real-time is on the instinctive level. As you point out, it's there an then it's gone.

I struggle with it, but I'm slowly learning. I can't really use it in free play yet because I still have to mentally process the data. In slower practice I can see a few opportunities to wind.

I've also noted in several places in Ringeck where the wind doesn't go to a thrust, but frees one's sword so it can counterstrike. For example, you cut Zorn, he breaks with Krump, you wind your sword down which frees the sword, allowing you to come round the back for a plunging cut to the head.

IIRC there's also one where the wind allows one to step aside and slice the upper torso (neck, hands, etc.).

Practice practice practice.

[James_Knowles]

Winding is like kissing ... just in case your oppoenet is not a good boy and refuse to get hit

ROFL... on a serious note, great comments about winding and indes.

[JeffGentry]

Well i can see were you go with the krump i know i kind of use my krump and his speed to move his sword were i can kill him, again it is the feel of the bind and my instinct that i am working off of, so i guess sometime's i do wind and i just never realized it.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hey Jeff how's it going-

Ryan, does a lot of winding and thrusting. He seems to flow off of the blows and step into them alot. I have learned that the feeling portion of the winding is probably the most important part of this. Like you said "situational" it depends on what is happening in the fight. I also am really liking the half-swording. I have started to really get quick with the pommel strike to the face with the half-sword. This is also situational.

[JeffGentry]

why am i not surprised you like that pommel to the face Aaron <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> . Yea i am kind of drawing the conclusion that some people naturaly wind and it is situational, guess it is one of those thing's you train for and when it is ther it will happen automaticly.

I just sometime's see or read thing's and it start's me thinking and experimenting and then i just have to get the input of other's. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />