Allowing yourself to learn

[Allen Johnson]

I had an interesting experience this past few weeks reguarding a claim by a sword collector that he has witnessed many weld marks on baskethilt weapons from the 16th-19th centuries holding the tang to the blade. Knowing what we do about "rat tail" tangs I found this claim to be near sacreligious. Also combined with the fact that I had never heard anything like this before and had personally looked at hundreds and hundreds of pictures of my favorite weapon of all time.
We all at some point have had views that we hold, challenged or questioned by others. It would have been quite easy for me to say the claim was BS, cause I've never encountered it and move on. But I decided to give it a chance and did some more research. Long story short, I found out that this claim is supported and, to me, proven by a few others.
This big picture is that, I think often times we are too quick to discount new ideas that may arise in the sword community because the source is someone or something unknown to us. I'm certainly not saying that we should accept everything that is offered- but if we are going to call something as suprious, know WHY is it so. Not just because it came from this guy or this other club. We often get frustrated with others for not accepting facts that are so plain when the research is looked at fairly and unbaisedly (is that a word?). For me, this was a good lesson in making sure that I'm not doing the same thing.
PS- If any one is really interested in the actual topic of these tang welds, let me know and I'll be happy to share and give the sources propper credit.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Allen,

I assume we are discussing a forge weld on the tang. Please be so kind as to share the information that you have with me.

Thanks.

Brian Hunt.
GFS

[Allen Johnson]

PM sent <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[John_Clements]

When you say "weld" marks on the hilt you just mean where the hot metal bands woul dhave been hammered together?

JC

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

...since welding only works, as far as I know, only with electricity, and that smith-welding is something completelly different (and looks different) and would not be done on a redy blade, for it would soften it down, I think what that collector has seen could have been either a 19 century replica or, an original weapon which was repaired in our times.

Szab

[Brian Hunt]

It could also be an extention to the tang forgewelded at the time of manufacture. Sometimes you run out of steel for the tang and you need to extend it, a way to do so is to forge weld a extra length to the tang of the blade at the time of forging, before it is heat treated. Also, you can repair a broken tang by forging a new piece to it, but this can ruin the temper of your blade, and you have to take the risk of re-treating it. Risky if your edges are thin, they could burn right off.

just my 2 cents worth.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeffGentry]

Hey Szabolcs

...since welding only works, as far as I know, only with electricity

You can actualy Oxy-actelene weld it is extremely uncommon now, it is how they weld 40-50 year's ago before the portable welder generator.

In all reality a good weld would be nearly impossible to detect with the naked eye once welded and cleaned and ground flush which if i welded a tang on a sword is what i would.

I have no idea though since i have not seen it.


Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yes, oxy-acetyl was how I was taught -- though I was never any good at it.

And the idea of welding, as JC implied, is something ancient to smithing. Basically any heating to orange or white of two seperate pieces of metal which are then blended together by hammering constitutes *welding*, more or less.

That is why the blended slabs and rods of *pattern-welding* for sword-smithing are thus described accurately by such a term.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeff

Welding is not a new concept, most people tend to think in term's of shielded metal arc welding or mig welding because it is what is most common now day's, you/JC are completely correct though that "pattern welding" is probably the oldest form of welding, even then it is not alway's easy to see when this has been done, if the smith does a good re-temper and heat treat to relieve stress.


Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yes it is difficult to detect it, at least in a really nicely done blade, as you indeed implied.