Chi Theory in Europe?

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Joseph Scott
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Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Joseph Scott » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:54 pm

We have seen that most aspects of Asian martial arts also existed in Europe, doubtless for the simple reason that human beings, with identical faculties of reasoning, and similar direct experiences would logically come to the same basic conclusions.

In Asia, martial arts were also heavily associated with theories and practices concerning the manipulation of Chi.

Now, Chi Kung (the Chinese name for the whole science of Chi practices) spread with Buddhism, and later Taoism, which obviously were not present in Medieval or Renaissance Europe.

However, Chi Kung, stripped of it's religious overtones, is merely the use of visualization to manipulate the electromagnetic energy fields of the body, and use of breathing excercises to control the Ph balance of the blood. In these to guises it has been in the present day scientifically studied and measured, leading to the increased use of Asian medical practices in modern Western medicine, and to the discovery of such techniques as the use of electrical stimulation to cuase broken bones to knit faster.

Renaissance and Medieval Europeans obviously had many esoteric traditions of their own, several of which involved visualization. And, clearly they had the same inherent capacity to control their breathing if they so desired. Further, if we assume that European culture was at least the equal of Asian culture in sophistication (and I think few here would dispute that), then it seems logical to assume their esoteric and/or scientific practices were equal in sophistication.

I know that in the early 19th century Dr. Mesmer of Austria developed a body of practices which seem identical to parts of Asian Chi-based medical practices, without the religious flavour.

Given all of that, here is my question: Is anyone aware of any equivelent body of visualization and breathing techniques, used to increase lethality, improve physical and mental capabilities, or overall fitness and health, be it developed in the context of a European esoteric tradition (whether Christian, Hermatic, Gnostic, Rosicrucian, or Alchemical in origin), or simply one developed secularly as a scientific or practical system, which was associated with any European martial arts in the way that it was in Asia?

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Gene Tausk
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Gene Tausk » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:14 pm

Joseph:

We try and stay away from metaphysical discussions here because they are not germane to our study and understanding of RMA.

Respectfully, Franz Mesmer was a crank and a quack whose "theories" have long since been shot down and is remembered today primarily for identifying what has since been called hypnosis.

I'm going to allow this thread to remain open because you have asked a question which is somewhat on point, but any discussions of metaphysics, "psychic" powers or woo-woo mysticism will cause this thread to be closed in a hurry.

For an enlightening view on "chi," pay a visit to the James Randi Educational Foundation website.


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Mike_McGurk
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Mike_McGurk » Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:18 pm

I agree fully with Gene. In addition, while you defend Qi by mentioning the use of electrical stimulation - the effectiveness of which is still in doubt - in medicine you forget that the amount of electricity used for such therapy is far greater than the amount concentrated at any point in the human body. Also, in tradition japanese martial arts Ki (from Qi) is closely related to the No mind and the point at which the mind unlearns techniques and they become instinctive reactions, something that is universal to martial arts.
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Joseph Scott
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Joseph Scott » Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:24 pm

Well, two minor things Gene:

Dr. Mezmer was denounced as a fraud in the early 19th Century, an era when a lot of quackery was accepted by manistream medicine. From what I know of it, he was attacked because his idea was new, not because it was wrong. (Though it may well have also been wrong.) He was challenging the establishment, in a very conservative country, in a very conservative profession, at a time when there was already a strong reaction against new ideas in general, as a side effect of the backlash against the French revolution and the liberalism of the 1780's and 1790's. I am positive that even if he was 100% right (and I am not arguing he was) he would have been treated in exactly the fashion he was. I am not aware of any systematic attempt in the last 20 years to scientifically examine all of his theories. Of course, I am not an expert on medicine or medical history, so I could well be wrong.

Second, Mr. Randi is a rather fanatical, aggressive man whose methods do not appear to me to be any more scientific than those he denounces. He has routinely refused any number of very polite invitations to test various "mystical" things he derides under controlled, scientific conditions supervised by neutral third parties of his choice. He will only participate in "tests" he has total control over, where he is just as capable of arranging preordained results and being as much a charlatan as those he attacks. At no point has his behaviour been that of an objective rational person seeking truth through empirical test and gentlemanly rational discussion. His very high degree of emotional involvement, the unneccessary virulence and invective with which he attacks his opponents make that extremely clear. For which very understandable reason, many people who study such things will have nothing to do with him, seeing it as a waste of time, and an unnecessarily unpleasant one at that.

However, I do very much respect the intent of this Forum, which is why I enquired for permission to the webmaster to post this topic prior to doing so, and I do not seek to convince anyone of anything relating to the mystical. While I have seen a number of studies, conducted by prestigious western universities like Cornell and Princeton, showing positive results of visualiaztion, meditation and other things thought psychic or mystical, it is by no means my intent to try to prove or discuss the effectiveness of any particular practice. I made mention of Dr. Mezmer and modern medicine because I wished to show reasons I thought such practices might have possibly existed in Europe in the period under discussion.

The intent of my question is purely historical: Did such practices exist as part of any European martial art, without regard for any merit or lack thereof such practices may have had.

That is the only basis I intend to discuss the topic under, and I hope all others who participate in this thread will do likewise.

Lastly, I do very much appreciate your willingness to discuss something which is sitting right on the borderline with "off-topic", and I thank you for your consideration and understanding in this matter.

Joseph

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Nathan Dexter
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Nathan Dexter » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:42 pm

I do think that the psychic things are not necessarily to be used in this forum, there are a few notable things that Asian arts do have. one major thing is the "kia"; (basically a yell) that causes a sudden uplift of the diaphragm, causing more strength in your upper torso. (Also it can be very intimidating to your opponent) Although it certainly wasn't called a "kia" in Europe, what fighter wouldn't try that? So there are some similarities, but the spiritual implications are definitely different. And there are some others, but also many differences
Nathan
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:46 am

Hmmm....

I have read most of the manuals at least cursorily and a few in great detail (as in over 10 times with lots of annotation and head scratching).

I have so far seen some element of ethics/religious instruction (when to use or not use the art and on whom and why) and lots and lots of body mechanics, weight shift, leverage, touch sensitivity (5 words anyone?) and attitude instruction.

I am unaware of any WMA manuals that talk about chi circulation or theory in the way you would with a modern taiji practicioner.

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:10 am

The closest to any "supernatural" or "ultranatural" utilisation of or meditation upon "inner energies" during the vast history of European martial arts is what may be found in the source literature and via decent modern scholarly guessing, which to brutally summarise, seems to amount to the following:

(1) Shamanistic prayer/belief/hallucinogenic-ingestion which makes one feel strongly that he was infused with beast-like and/or ancestral power.

(2) Heathen prayer/belief which makes one feel strongly that he was infused with ancestral and/or divine power.

(3) Christian prayer/belief/chastity which makes one feel strongly that he was infused with divine power.

(4) Simple quiet and individual meditation upon one's daily lessons to envision the right way to fight. Plus eating and sleeping enough, and training often, and so forth.

(5) And exceptions/combinations, such as (for example) "berserking" -- perhaps caused by genetic mental condition, fervour as part of Woden cult, and/or ingestion of ergot or fly-agaric.

I really do think that covers what one typically finds in the tales and literature of European cultures. Other stuff about powers similar to ki/chi just is not there, and becomes conjecture.

I think that most of those warriors could hit as hard as they did because they willed to do so, not because all their chakras were aligned, or because they were in harmony with every molecule in creation, or whatever.

Lastly, to be quite blunt, if one of the above courses was not the preferred "inner path" for a given European warrior of a given period, then the course of women and liquor was often pursued instead to reach that "higher state".

That said, it occurs to me that when someone asks a question like this, it seems to imply by default when the answer is negative, that this means there is some sort of "lack".

To that I say -- Nothing doing! Why should it imply anything of the sort? What sort of sprituality the Europeans had in their martial arts seemed to serve them well enough. It should be understood for what it was, rather than trying to find analogues to make it something other than that.

Such European traditions are worthy in and of themselves.
JLH

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david welch
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby david welch » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:40 am

Chi

More Chi

For more fun, google search "Yellow Bamboo vs. Reality" to see what happens when you try to deflect a BJJ fighter with your "Chi".(Hint... you get your chi handed too you)The link page is not work/family safe so I decided not to link it here.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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SzabolcsWaldmann
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby SzabolcsWaldmann » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:27 am

"I do think that the psychic things are not necessarily to be used in this forum, there are a few notable things that Asian arts do have. one major thing is the "kia"; (basically a yell) that causes a sudden uplift of the diaphragm, causing more strength in your upper torso."

Hi,

Please read hanko Döbringer carefully. He tells us to yell while striking. That´s an excersise we do in training. ten times Zornhau without a yell, then ten times with yelling. It´s not a "kia", but a "hey", but still it works. It has some power when 30 people do that in the same same time... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I do advise to listen to "Najo Ratte" from Corvus Corax as well. A great warsong with yelling <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Szab
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Logan Weed
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Logan Weed » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:34 am

I think you mean 'kiai'.

david welch
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby david welch » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:44 am

Please read hanko Döbringer carefully. He tells us to yell while striking.


Well yeah. Yelling when you strike causes you to tighten your diaphram and stomach muscles. This tightening of the torso couples your power generator (your hips) to where your strike comes from (your shoulders). It is not to focus the mystical energy in your belly button. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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John_Clements
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby John_Clements » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:28 am

Rather than seeing that “most aspects of Asian martial arts also existed in Europe” you could view it as “most aspects of European martial arts also existed in Asia.” However, you're proceeding from several false assumptions, chiefly that “chi” is an actual phenomena that exists anywhere but the imagination. It is not an appropriate topic for our Forum which is about the “Science of Defence” --a craft devoid of mystical foundations and paranormal claims. Take it to the nonsense sites on Asian martial arts, please.

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insults to James Randi, a man who has tirelessly done unparalleled work to educate citizens and help consumers protect themselves and their families from fraud and deception is unworthy of our Forum.
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Gene Tausk
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Re: Chi Theory in Europe?

Postby Gene Tausk » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:01 am

John had already closed this post, but just a few comments before we close it again.

I should have immediately realized that such a topic will always go off into woo-woo land and has no place on this forum. I thought, wrongly, that we could keep the discussion towards a narrow goal, but, as stated, with such a useless topic heading, this seldom occurs.

First, Joseph, as John has already said, don't ever come this forum and insult James Randi. Mr. Randi has the utmost respect from John and me as well as many other ARMA members. He has a standing challenge of $1 million for anyone who can demonstrate psychic or unusual powers. The format of the test is easy: the applicant says what he can do and then just does it (wow, if only the bar exam I took to get licensed as an attorney was so simple). Half the applicants can't even describe what "mystical" power they have, muich less describe what amazing feats they can perform. Of the other half, approximately thirty percent find some convenient excuse not to take the test and the remaining twenty percent have never even passed the preliminary exam. The James Randi Educational Foundation is a force of reason and sanity in a world which often times chooses to live in fantasyland.

Second, Franz Mesmer was indeed a crank, a quack, and any other sort of pejorative you choose to call him. Have you read about his "therapies" where he would go around dressed in a robe embroidered with moons and stars with a wand, pointing the wand at people to "cure" them of their "ailments?" Even by 18th century medical standards, this was a joke. A commission from the French Academy of Sciences, with input from our own Benjamin Franklin, labeled Mesmer's theories as pure bunk, which they were and are. If you believe in this nonsense, great. I have a bridge in Brooklyn with your name on it, for sale, cheap.

I would respectfully suggest you take some time to explore websites such as James Randi's and the Skeptic's Dictionary. You might also want to check out Penn and Teller's excellent show "Bulls**t!!"

As for "chi," as John stated, there is no evidence that this phenomena exists except as perhaps a description of the correct alignment of the human body when performing a technique. Nothing mystical in that.

The ARMA forums have enough to do with discussions of the works of the fechtmeisters, a process of discovery that can take several lifetimes. We do not have the time or interest to explore nonsense. If you want to talk about this nonsense, go to the websites that sponsor this garbage or to a children's site such as Sesame Street where it belongs.

The adults here have work to do.

No further discussions on this junk will be tolerated. Anyone attempting to post on this again will be banned from our site, which should have been done by me in the first place.


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