Historical Research part the second

[Kent Campbell]

In an effort to keep things away from the game I am trying to construct but get the information I need to make things different from the rest of the pack. I have created this new thread to try and get the historical changes in weapon design and what those changes effected when it comes to damage, penetration, and other effects.

I understand that there are a HUGE variety of arms out there, and each one has a specific purpose based on it’s design. But also I see that to a degree all weapons stem from a base model as much as a modern human can be traced to one genetic off shoot. Thus please start all thinking from a basic, unmodified and generic weapon type.

I know this is counter intuitive, but it will also create a foundation for my trying to understand and adapt what is being said to my project. So to start this off, I would like to look at a simpler weapon then the sword. How about...the club.

The simplest form of club is a large hunk of wood used to bludgeon some thing or one. Later the club turned into a mace and hammer respectively. As addition to the design, they added studs, Metal Flanges, Spikes, eventualy a chain creating the flail.

So my question, what other variations to these designees am I missing? How did they add to the effect of the weapon? And were there any alterations to the weapon or grip that further changed the weapons performance or use. Oh and please correct any inconsistencies, even those corrections help me to understand.

[Allen Johnson]

The other problem you will run into is that there is a spread of different ways to do things over different cultures and different time periods.
We see a 'club' as a hunk of wood. What happens if you lash a stone to the end of it? Is is still a club? In central and south america many types of clubs were used. Some were fire hardened ones called 'macanas' which accounts claim they were able to sever limbs from bodies. So is this a club? If it cuts can it be a club? What about the Aztec 'maquahuitls'? (Flat wooden clubs that were edged with sharp obsidian blades) These were considered 'swords' by the invading Spanish. Many American Indian clubs had sharp edges as well that could penetrate on impact. Also a one or two handed grip can affect the way it is used.

[Jeffrey Hull]

KC:

You seem like a nice guy, and enthused about your project.

Please notice this verbatim at the starting Forum page:

The Forum provides a safe haven both for eager novices and learned students that is free of casual chatter, role-playing concerns...

...So you may understand the quandry. We welcome you, but the continued queries related to role-playing games are not really the focus of this Forum.

Good luck

[Kent Campbell]

While my RPG is at the center of my goals I am trying to gain the information with out refering to numbers, rolls, or the core system. What I would like though are...let me refraise.

When a club hits some one, what happens. How is that some one hurt, their bones are broken, organs damaged. When a arming sword hits some one, how does that damage change, when a sabre, Kopis (not european, but a design all the same), or Rapier hits armor. What is the effect from those weapons.

I am trying to learn the real life elements of damage and effect, this way I can convert it. I do not wish to be OT, but if there is no way even in this historical context that I can avoid it then I guess I need to look elseware.

People look at these weapons as such, weapons or tools. But is there more to it. It has been stated that the choice of weapon is necessary for the job it was designed for. Swords are poor against plate armor, So the War Hammer was created. A rapier is great for thrusts, but a arming sword and later the long sword were better for slashes. This is the information I want. And while the underlying goal is to define elements for my project. I would hope that people could see past that and and help me to understand that idea of right place and right time.

Further more, Isn't a weapon only as good as it's meathod of use. Does not the hilt or grip of any weapon effect how it is best wielded. Once again, while the armoing sword is a single handed weapon, it's later evolution, the long sword. Had a hand and half grip. While it was longer it did not need the added space. It was added for better accuracy in combat and the ability to thrust for better penetration against armor. I have been reading allot.

In any case, it is these historical elements that I am interested in as they are important. While a sword is the sum of a craft, it is also the sum of history, evolution, and change. Why is it so hard to try and quantify these changes over time to get a better understanding of purpose and design.

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Sorry if I might seam a little uptight...It seams that every time I mention the term game or RPG any possible credibility goes out the window and people assume I am 12 years younger then I really am. So that people don't get the wrong idea. I have been trying to prod answers out of people for some time now. Further more, I am well capable of comprehending allot. Hell some of you might want to hear my theories concerning cosmology and quantum mechanics.

Any way, a little on me. I am a 28 year old fellow living in the silicon vally. I have two kids and a wonderfull wife who I uprooted my life to be with some time back. I have a BA in Game Design and Computer Video Imaging from a private college in the bay area and was very happy to go through it. Any way...I hope I got back those 12 years.

[Kent Campbell]

Allen, I totaly agree. The idea of a club it really just a base for a barage of weapons through the ages. Even hybrid weapons that use multiple "primative" materials to create and effective compound weapon. The diferentiation of these weapons leads to entire sub sests of weapons and uses. After all the club with the application of a hammer or blunt head to the top becomes something then it was.

But I think for this, it would be best to keep to the more european designs. This will keep a focus and allow for a more indepth discussion of those weapons. May be private discussions of alternative weapons from other cultures and time periods would also be benaficial. I look forward to it.

[Topher D. Scofield]

Many, if not all of the questions that you posed can be answered by browsing the Articles & Essays section.

I'm also interested in gaming and in seeing a more realistic approach to combat. PM me and I'll be glad to talk more about it with you.

Regards,

Topher

[Gene Tausk]

While my RPG is at the center of my goals I am trying to gain the information with out refering to numbers, rolls, or the core system. What I would like though are...let me refraise.

When a club hits some one, what happens. How is that some one hurt, their bones are broken, organs damaged. When a arming sword hits some one, how does that damage change, when a sabre, Kopis (not european, but a design all the same), or Rapier hits armor. What is the effect from those weapons.

I am trying to learn the real life elements of damage and effect, this way I can convert it. I do not wish to be OT, but if there is no way even in this historical context that I can avoid it then I guess I need to look elseware.

People look at these weapons as such, weapons or tools. But is there more to it. It has been stated that the choice of weapon is necessary for the job it was designed for. Swords are poor against plate armor, So the War Hammer was created. A rapier is great for thrusts, but a arming sword and later the long sword were better for slashes. This is the information I want. And while the underlying goal is to define elements for my project. I would hope that people could see past that and and help me to understand that idea of right place and right time.

Further more, Isn't a weapon only as good as it's meathod of use. Does not the hilt or grip of any weapon effect how it is best wielded. Once again, while the armoing sword is a single handed weapon, it's later evolution, the long sword. Had a hand and half grip. While it was longer it did not need the added space. It was added for better accuracy in combat and the ability to thrust for better penetration against armor. I have been reading allot.

In any case, it is these historical elements that I am interested in as they are important. While a sword is the sum of a craft, it is also the sum of history, evolution, and change. Why is it so hard to try and quantify these changes over time to get a better understanding of purpose and design.

------------------

Sorry if I might seam a little uptight...It seams that every time I mention the term game or RPG any possible credibility goes out the window and people assume I am 12 years younger then I really am. So that people don't get the wrong idea. I have been trying to prod answers out of people for some time now. Further more, I am well capable of comprehending allot. Hell some of you might want to hear my theories concerning cosmology and quantum mechanics.

Any way, a little on me. I am a 28 year old fellow living in the silicon vally. I have two kids and a wonderfull wife who I uprooted my life to be with some time back. I have a BA in Game Design and Computer Video Imaging from a private college in the bay area and was very happy to go through it. Any way...I hope I got back those 12 years.

First, don't use profanity on our forums again.

Second, you seem to have answered part of your own question already. Arms and armor were (and I guess continue to be) in constant competition with each other. Weapons changed, in part, because of the shifting capabilities and improvements of armor. Armor changed, in part, because of newer and more innovative weapons. It is, in part, because of this competition that weapons changed and armor changed over time.

Third, if you are asking for a complete history of the sword, my only reply is "which volume?" Ewart Oakshott spent his life investigating this subject and his books are out there for you to purchase. I can think of no better place to start.

Fourth, if you continue to get "uptight" because we refuse to answer questions about your role-playing games, then once again look at ARMA's purpose. We are not an RPG society, although many of us, myself included, like good RPG's. Jake invited you to email him and Jake wrote an outstanding RPG based on a realistic melee system. Leave it at that.

Ask more specific questions and you may get the answers for which you are looking.

[Kent Campbell]

I think that there is a certain ammount of misscommunication going on. So how about this one. I am looking at things from the idea of going from a general explanation to a specific one. This is how I buuild up a foundation of knowledge. It is how MY brain works. Something that many many many people seem to have issue with.

Have you ever heard of the term "lost in the details"? It is an issue artists have, but others also get. In art it is refered to as a loss of general focus. You loose the bigger picture in trying to manage the fine details. The best example is drawing a portrate and spending hours on a hand, only to have a perfect hand that is out of scale.

While I accept that there are inumerable weapons out there that are all purposed for a single task. To learn each one with out classification would be useless. It is just getting lost in the details. You assume that my attempts to generalize are related to my efforts. To some degree that is true. But also, there are common general elements to the use and application of any weapon of a class. Wasn;t it in one of the essays that there are 8 common moovs relative to a curved blade, with subtle variants depending on design?

By my being general in my questions, I am trying to learn the basics. If that can not be understood in such simple terms...then what is the point. Thus if people that wish to further assist can e-mail me. Just look up my profile. Cause I can not talk about specific technique and effect till I have the concrete foundation of knowledge that a beginner would not have.