Cinqueda Question

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

Ive been busy and not posting alot lately, but there has been some very good discussion coupled with video demos on the edge vs. flat debate. I think the points being reached represent a very good blend of source scholarship, athletic observation, and weapon experimentation.

With this in mind, I am wondering if Cinqueda type weapons could be seen as a type of "automatic transmission/training wheels" type of weapon to overemphasize a wide flat for absorbing cuts.

I know Cinquedas (which I dont think Ive spelled right yet) are more of a short sword more associated with Italian nobility, but could this whole model of flat usage extend our understanding in this area? Would the purpose of the weapon almost be similar to that of the Japanese Jutte? Namely, provide an easily carried defensive weapon against attackers with longer weapons?

I could be totally off base, Ive never heard of anybody training with this weapon, or seeing it addressed in period sources. Am curious to what those with more experience might think.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I am not sure if I am able to confirm your hypothesis, since I cannot interview ancient weaponsmiths, but it does seem like the cinquedea, and perhaps other designs in other parts of Europe, like some of the larger coustilles and the more sword-like baselards, were all attempts to provide the fighter a shorter type of sword which still had substantial mass to it...Or maybe a larger type of dagger which still had some nimbleness to it.

[Gianluca Zanini]

Hello,

here you can download a famous Italian Manual on the Ancient Arms: "Guida al raccoglitore e amatore delle armi antiche". Litt. "Guide to the collector and lover of the ancient arms" of the lateXIX-earlyXX. Where you can find further detail on this wonderful short blade

Second 80 pages-pag 35 pdf file-page 222 manual

http://www.earmi.it/download/libri/gelli.htm

Note Cinquedea (litt. five fingers) is known by J.Gelli(eminent researcher and scholar of italian fencing and weapons, duelling chivalry codex) as LINGUA DI BUE-
OX'S TOUNGUE.
In my next visit at the museum I will study two speciment, one of those is long 90 cm (37in) and is called DAGONA(LITT.:BIG DAGGER) CINQUEDEA.

In the meantime I will translate as best as I can the passage:

Lingua di Bue. (Latin:parazonium;French:langue de boef; english:enelace; spanish lengua de buey)
This kind of dagger, which have blade and hilt of different form in compaqrison to the common dagger, and which very much remember the roman and greek parazonium, was named Lingua di Bue. This short steel weapon distinguished by a very large blade at the tallone, continuing with double edges, isoscele triangular shaped, with arc of circle base. It rapresented almost always a luxury weapon, and was then ornamented with exquisite work of engraving, agemina?, chisel,enamel, niello?, on golden and bronze ground (flat) with allegoric and historical patterns.
The Lingue di Bue of Verona(between Milan and Venice) were the most reknowed, and here, like in Venice, were named Cinque Dea, from the width of the tallone.
On the scabbart of this blade there was very often a little knife which was called Bastardo in Verona, and Batardeau in France.
The handle of the Lingua di bue and of the bastardo, was often made of ivory, or in precious metal, enriched with gems.
In this case a Lingua di Bue can cost 500, 1000 lire and even more, depending on the set gem and fineness of the work.
In the market, on the other hand, it can be found some unexpencive one, but they are just...reproductions.


I will appreciate, may be in pvt, a feed back of my engliswh translation just to improve mine.
Thanks





Gianluca Zanini

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Well, if you're looking for hints on the translation, I think "tallone" is usually called the "shoulders" of the blade in English. And "niello" is a perfectly recognizable term in English so I don't think it has to be translated. I'm not sure about "agemina" but from the context it sounds like "embossing." Anybody?

Now, my personal impression of such blades straddling the borderline between "short sword" and "long dagger" (including many examples of the Roman gladii) is that they might have been meant to be something more massive than daggers but not big enough to require the kind of finesse that is so necessary in controlling the mass of a full-sized sword. They're not as handy as "proper" swords for throwing false-edge blows--they lack the length (and therefore reach) needed to do that--but as a compensation they're also somewhat easier to recover and/or reverse.

That's just my personal opinions, though. Others are practically guaranteed to have different experiences.

[Gianluca Zanini]

Well, if you're looking for hints on the translation, I think "tallone" is usually called the "shoulders" of the blade in English. And "niello" is a perfectly recognizable term in English so I don't think it has to be translated. I'm not sure about "agemina" but from the context it sounds like "embossing." Anybody?

Thanks

They're not as handy as "proper" swords for throwing false-edge blows--they lack the length (and therefore reach) needed to do that--but as a compensation they're also somewhat easier to recover and/or reverse.
That's just my personal opinions, though. Others are practically guaranteed to have different experiences.

Mine is just a couple of note on the blade:
1 stabbing cause a very and progressivly large heavy injury
2 cutting must be quite powerful in the short range, much more than a knife.

I might say it stab as a dagger and cut as a sword.

[Jeffrey Hull]

GZ: Thanks for the link to the armaments PDF. I noticed that in that is a chapter that is a multilingual glossary or arms & armour terms including Tedesco (German) terms. That seems nice, as so many today like attempting comparitive of German & Italian terms, and so we find a scholar in the past doing likewise.

Thanks to everybody for the comments.

[Gianluca Zanini]

GZ: Thanks for the link to the armaments PDF. I noticed that in that is a chapter that is a multilingual glossary or arms & armour terms including Tedesco (German) terms. That seems nice, as so many today like attempting comparitive of German & Italian terms, and so we find a scholar in the past doing likewise.

Thanks to everybody for the comments.

Pleasure