Sword and Buckler scoring in tourneys - can you help?

[Jo Green]

I'm trying to create a credible scoring system for a book which has competitions based on medieval tourneys. I'm fairly OK for the joust and archery, but despite a day and a half trawling the web, can't find anything on sword or sword and buckler/shield fights apart from the 1.33 German fighting manual which mentions the body parts or Wards.
Can anyone point me at a fairly straightforward site (I've maxed out on searching through original manuscripts) or suggest something plausible (e.g. 1 point for hits on arms, 2 points on chest, 3 on head up to 5 on disarm/submission)
Thank you for your time and expertise

[CalebChow]

Hey Jo, welcome.

Sorry to break it to you, but as far as I know, we don't do points here

My study group judges hits by only one criteria: Whether the blow, if fully executed with a real weapon, would be sufficient to incapacitate or kill the opponent. That means grazes and hard hits with the blade flat mean absolutely nothing to us.

It's a subjective criteria, but as I personally am trying to learn an art instead of winning tournaments, I rely on others' personal integrity and friendship in practice sparring and simply try to learn from whatever the outcome.

If you're looking for a point-scoring system, I apologize because I don't know where to look and I do not believe ARMA has such a system either.

As for books on tourneys, I'm not sure if medieval tourneys used points either. Someone with more knowledge on prize-playings, etc. could probably fill you in on historical sources.

Good luck.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Matt Galas posted rules for longsword competition here:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=80863

He says they were in use as far back as 1540 at least. It's probably later than you were looking for but maybe it can serve as inspiration...

Tournament rules with heavier protection were possibly more permissive, but for sword&buckler I don't know if wearing a suit of armour was really the norm.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I'm trying to create a credible scoring system for a book which has competitions based on medieval tourneys. I'm fairly OK for the joust and archery, but despite a day and a half trawling the web, can't find anything on sword or sword and buckler/shield fights apart from the 1.33 German fighting manual which mentions the body parts or Wards.
Can anyone point me at a fairly straightforward site (I've maxed out on searching through original manuscripts) or suggest something plausible (e.g. 1 point for hits on arms, 2 points on chest, 3 on head up to 5 on disarm/submission)
Thank you for your time and expertise

I have no clue how they scored things in the bad old days. My preference for modern practice is just to acknowledge solid clean hits and reset. If it is a marginal hit (no momentum potential, with the flat, etc.) then discuss it with your sparring partner. This won't be so useful in a competetive tournament, admittedly, but this is a problem with taking a "sport" approach. You can't have a "friendly" fun instructional (albeit earnest) tennis match when it is being scored with precise rules for title or money.

[Jon Pellett]

Either Marozzo or Manciolino says something about this early on - I'd check them out. They are beginning of the 16th c though.

[Jo Green]

Thank you so much for your prompt and informative replies, I now have a much better picture of what goes on and it's given me a wealth of ideas for potential fouls and misdemeanours by the villains in my book (who are all 13 year old boys).
I have no doubt I will have further questions arising from this fascinating foray into medieval life. Having lived at the bottom of Warwick castle grounds for most of my teenage years (with peacocks occasionally finding their way into our back garden), it was always on the cards that one of my stories would be influenced by the rich material it offers. I'd love to offer a quote, but I'm not that well read - yet!!
Cheers again.

[Jon Pellett]

Ah, I found what Manciolino says. He says that a blow to the head counts for 3, and a blow to the foot counts for 2 (because it is hard to hit). Also, if you get hit, you are not allowed to make more than one blow in response (with one step). That last rule seems very common. Hits to the hands and legs count.

English sword and buckler rules seem to have forbidden hitting below the waist or thrusting, at least in one period (we don't know if that was the case everywhere in England, or in the Middle Ages). The German longsword rules of that time also forbade thrusting, I think. The London Masters of Defence in the 16th c. banned closing to grapple after you hit someone so that he was unable to make an after-blow.

A common rule was that you won by hitting your opponent on the head hard enough to make them bleed.

[Jo Green]

Thanks a lot Jon, I found some stuff from Marozzo and Manciolino, and some other rules about the longsword (Thanks Vincent) which have given me a big insight. Just a tad confused (well I am only a girl!) how you can't hit below the belt but hits to the legs count and you can get 2 points for a foot! Maybe they changed the score system for the duration of the below the belt ban.
Joking apart, in my imaginary quasi-medieval world, I get to choose the rules so anything goes. From the few fights I have seen (blame Knight's tale for most of my ideas) I kind of pictured a time-bounded (say 5-minute) bout where any number of blows could occur and the winner would be the one with the highest scoring hit during that time (except a disarm - that pretty much says game over).
From what you're saying, the first hit is game over - doesn't that mean it can all be over too soon or have I got competely the wrong idea about how easy it is to actually get a hit?
Also, I just assumed armour would always be worn, but I'm getting a conflicting picture from my trawling. Maybe the padded arming coat would be enough, especially as the swords will be wooden (albeit processed to make them durable).
Any opinions from you guys will be gratefully recieved. I haven't had this much fun in ages!
Cheers

[Jaron Bernstein]

Thanks a lot Jon, I found some stuff from Marozzo and Manciolino, and some other rules about the longsword (Thanks Vincent) which have given me a big insight. Just a tad confused (well I am only a girl!) how you can't hit below the belt but hits to the legs count and you can get 2 points for a foot! Maybe they changed the score system for the duration of the below the belt ban.
Joking apart, in my imaginary quasi-medieval world, I get to choose the rules so anything goes. From the few fights I have seen (blame Knight's tale for most of my ideas) I kind of pictured a time-bounded (say 5-minute) bout where any number of blows could occur and the winner would be the one with the highest scoring hit during that time (except a disarm - that pretty much says game over).
From what you're saying, the first hit is game over - doesn't that mean it can all be over too soon or have I got competely the wrong idea about how easy it is to actually get a hit?
Also, I just assumed armour would always be worn, but I'm getting a conflicting picture from my trawling. Maybe the padded arming coat would be enough, especially as the swords will be wooden (albeit processed to make them durable).
Any opinions from you guys will be gratefully recieved. I haven't had this much fun in ages!
Cheers

Wooden wasters were long used a traditional training weapon. The term "swashbuckler" came from local youths in England who would go into town wearing sword and buckler (which "swashed" together) on their belts while engaging in various forms of misbehavior. There are several articles on the ARMA website here that discuss the historical basis and can provide good fodder for your story.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/wasters.htm

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/I33-guards.html

[Stacy Clifford]

First, keep in mind you're looking at rules from different countries. The English might not have allowed hits below the belt, but Manciolino was Italian. Everybody had their own local set of classroom rules, even if the fighting techniques they taught were largely the same across Europe.

As for sparring with wooden swords, we often do so in t-shirts and sweatpants, wearing only padded gloves and a helmet for protection. If your control is good, the worst that will happen are bruises, cuts, and the rare broken finger, and it's certainly possible to spar with no protection, which I'm sure was the norm before rubber foam and wire mesh were invented. A certain amount of minor injury is just expected and tolerated in training for any martial discipline, and we can usually laugh about our bruises when it's over and show them off as badges of our dedication. If your book is about young boys, then perhaps a bit less self-control would be expected, but then in those times they started younger and had more experienced teachers than we do today. Watch some of the sparring videos on this page to see what I mean, especially the two Prize Playing videos:

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/TPVideos.htm