Movements in Historical Manuals

[Dennis Zlat]

I was asked recently where it is written in historical manuals about the movement system. And, I found that I know how to use it but have no idea what the source of these movements.
I never cross my legs.
I use triangle step.
I use traversal step.
They work great for me, and for me they are seemed natural. Maybe, somebody can point where I can find the historical evidence for these movements.

[CalebChow]

Many manuals speak about footwork, but one that I have a copy of is Joachim Meyer. You can read about it with one translation right here:

http://www.schielhau.org/Meyer.p24.html

[Dennis Zlat]

CalebChow thank you very much. I found not only footwork but also timing there. One more question, Joachim Meyer's work is the end of 16th century; can we find the same references early?

[Jaron Bernstein]

CalebChow thank you very much. I found not only footwork but also timing there. One more question, Joachim Meyer's work is the end of 16th century; can we find the same references early?

Ma Shalomcha?


Di Grassi is after Meyer, but he also describes footwork in some detail.

[Jaron Bernstein]

CalebChow thank you very much. I found not only footwork but also timing there. One more question, Joachim Meyer's work is the end of 16th century; can we find the same references early?

Hi Dennis,

Here is a quote from Silver (Paul Wagner published version pg. 220):

"The grounds or Principles of true fight with all manner of weapons.

First judgement, lyings, distance, direction, pace, space, place, time, indirection, motion, action, generall and continuall motion, progression, regression, traversing and treading of groundes, blowes, thrusts, falses, doubles, slips, wardes, breaking of thrusts, closings, gripes and wrastlings, guardant fight, open fight, variable fight, and close fight and foure gouvernours"

There is footwork working biyachad the rest of the art.

[Ken Dietiker]

Earlier? Fiore says a little about movement. Here he talks about "turning" but not so much specifics on actual footwork. Imagine though that to make these turns, you apply foot work.

"And each guard can do Stable Turn and Half Turn. Stable Turn is when one is standing still and can play in front and behind on one side. Half Turn is when one makes a pass forwards or backwards so that he can fight on one or the other side, in front and behind. Full Turn is when one goes pivoting about one foot with the other foot, the one stays firm and the other circles around. And because of that I say the sword has three movements which are Stable Turn, Half Turn and Full turn. (....) Also, there are 4 things in the art, which are passing, turning, advancing and retreating."

[Dennis Zlat]

Jaron, Baru ha’Shem. Ma shlomha?
Have we met? I’ve trained in ACT group in Jerusalem. You are welcome to visit us, when you visit Israel.
Do I understand Meyer right that he speaks about three types of footwork:
1. Forward and backward (no questions about it)
2. When he speaks about the steps that are delineated through a triangle, he means “replacement step/triangle step” (that is used in Philippine martial arts) or “side step”?
3. I completely don’t understand the third type “the broken or stolen steps”.
Toda raba.


Ken Dietiker, the full turn according to Fiore does it mean “traversal step”?
Thanks

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jaron, Baru ha’Shem. Ma shlomha?
Have we met? I’ve trained in ACT group in Jerusalem. You are welcome to visit us, when you visit Israel.
Do I understand Meyer right that he speaks about three types of footwork:
1. Forward and backward (no questions about it)
2. When he speaks about the steps that are delineated through a triangle, he means “replacement step/triangle step” (that is used in Philippine martial arts) or “side step”?
3. I completely don’t understand the third type “the broken or stolen steps”.
Toda raba.


Ken Dietiker, the full turn according to Fiore does it mean “traversal step”?
Thanks

We haven't met. Hayete b'Aretz rak b'kayitz shel 1992.


This is from the Forgeng Meyer translation http://www.amazon.com/Art-Combat-German ... 251&sr=1-1 pg. 69:

Now there are three chief forms of stepping

1. Firstly, back and forward; it is not neccessary to explain at length what these are, namely when one steps toward or away from the opponent.
2. Secondly there are also steps to the sides which are described by the triangle, namely thus: stand in a straight line with your right foot before your opponent and step with your left foot behind your right toward his left; and this is the single. The other, which is a double step, happens thus: step as before with your right towards his left (my addition - with a simple step): follow then with your left behind the right toward his left somewhat to the side, and then thirdly with the right again to his left.
3. Thirdly, there are the broken or stolen steps, which are done thus: act as if you intend to step forward with the one foot, and before you set it down, step backwards with it behind the other foot. Since these properly belong in the rapier, I will save it for there.

On pg. 103 we hear:

"do a double step thus: when you have stepped with your right foot to his left, and your technique requires that you should step yet further around, then step with your left foot after the right one, outwards or past behind your right foot; then when you have barely set the left down, you can step forth with the right, to double the step (or slice)."

On pg 124 he describes gathering steps for the dusack

The broken/stolen could be interpreted as a feint. Act as if you are moving forward with a foot, and then take that foot back instead with a void (hopefully while cutting or thrusting at the same time). Or I have heard it described as volta type step. There is also a lot to be learned about Meyer's footwork from studying the woodcuts in detail.

[Ken Dietiker]

Ken Dietiker, the full turn according to Fiore does it mean “traversal step”?
Thanks

Essentially, yes, it does involve a traversing step.

But I'd be careful here in mixing the two or using the two terms as if they are identical. Conceptually, turning and stepping, though sharing similar traits, are not identical in entirety. Let's just say that a full turn incorporates a traversing step to accomplish the movement. That traversing step may also be seen as a "compass step" in that one foot pivots while the other draws a circle around the pivot. The distance the compassing foot travels is undetermined in this concept and there is nothing that says it must be 45 or 90 or 30 degrees at stopping point (full turn also doesn't imply a 180 or 360 degree turn as some folks in the past have suggested). This is because a full turn also implies relative position and angle of orientation against an opponent. So, the distance or relative angle the traversing step takes is determined by the fight, in the moment. It may also be included in a combination step. Think, "half turn followed by short full turn".

Also, the Full Turn can and does apply to the front foot being the moving foot, and not always the back foot, but generally either foot is moving off line and never crosses the line in front.

Does that help?

[Ken Dietiker]

Two more things.

1. Part of the concept of turning, either of the three, are related also to multiple attackers from different directions. I think this is obvious as he says "in front or behind".

2. Notice that at the end he breaks up movement into 4 things. This is because a step may or may not involve one of the three turns. For instance, in advancing and retreating, if you do so by use of a small step, either with the front foot moving forward or the back foot moving backwards, there is no turn involved. And, that you can also make a "pass" with a long forward-foot lunge done off line for the same reason, not necessarily with only a passing step (half-turn).

Play with it and you'll see what he means.