ARMA Inducted into the World Martial Arts Union

[Webmaster]

Some of you have no doubt seen this already, but it's time we announced it properly. We are proud to say that ARMA has been formally inducted into the World Martial Arts Union, a Non-Governmental Organization under the patronage of UNESCO for the purpose of sustaining Intangible Cultural Heritage. Full details can be found here:

ARMA Inducted into the World Martial Arts Union

[Allen Johnson]

Very exciting news. Great step forward.

[Tyrone Artur Budzin]

One big step for ARMA, one giant leap for HEMA!

[Hans Meier]

Representing the entire historical fencing community, the ARMA now advises the Union on reviving and promoting authentic Western European fighting styles from the 14th to 17th centuries.

Says Clements: "My role in the WoMAU will be to represent the worldwide community of students and enthusiasts studying this craft. As an advocate promoting this subject, I will be acting to advise on modern efforts to revive the source teachings and consult on criteria for authentic practice. It is a responsibility I take seriously and will use to foster the integrity and standing of this craft. Chief among my goals will be preventing contamination of study by modern activities or its deterioration into mere sport."

If I was under the impression that this organization (WoMAU) was in any way relevant to anything I would be outraged. In fact, most of europe is!

[Sal Bertucci]

I'm confused.

Are you upset that we don't support cross contamination between other Martial Arts and RMA, HEMA, MARE, whatever you want to call it?

Are you upset That we don't support nor endorse the idea that we can revive these arts by turning them into a sport?

Or both?

Lastly, (and I admit this is a bit spiteful) if this is so irrelevant why did you both to take the time to come over and explain that everyone is in a tussle over it?

[Hans Meier]

Lastly, (and I admit this is a bit spiteful) if this is so irrelevant why did you both to take the time to come over and explain that everyone is in a tussle over it?

as you can see I joined quite some time ago and did not come over just now.

My point is that Clements John and the ARMA are unfit to represent anyone but themselves, let alone the entire historical fencing community.

I seriously ask myself how such a thing could have happened in the year 2010. A time in which it would have been no big deal to invite groups all over the world to a discussion or maybe even a voting of some sort. There certainly would have been enough boards and maillists to do so.

This is the basic difference between the ARMA and the hema community: While the former is a club that keeps to itself and in which members are in fact forbidden from sharing with outsiders, the latter is an open community in which sharing and discussion are welcomed and promoted.

So, by means of an cloak-and-dagger operation (since nothing of the sort was announced or put out for discussion) the ARMA assumed hegemony on all matters hema and then, after it was all done, presented the rest of the world with accomplished facts. This is unaccaptable. And I believe as soon as the state of affairs is realized by those officials from WoMAU it will reflect badly on the ARMA.

[Jorge Cortines]

Hans,

I really don't understand your comments... I speak for myself not for the ARMA and this is my personal opinion:

*ARMA was invited to join the World Martial Arts Union
*Martial Arts of Renassaince Europe are now recognized as martial art, the ARMA made the case for our art to be an "Intangible Cultural Heritage". I think this is something to celebrate, don't you think?

*ARMA has made accessible to the public more articles, and manuals than any other group or association...
*ARMA focuses on researching and reviving the forgotten teachings of the historical Masters of Defence and fighting schools, we ARE NOT interested in sportifying the ART (tournaments)... sparring, freeplay for us IMO is a tool not a goal...

Now IMO, ARMA was invited for it's merits (+30 years of research and efforts in reviving these lost teachings, and preventing contamination from outside the sources, and demonstrating that the Art can be revived from source literature... all this again in +30 years of effort), we have not lost focus in our mission of researching and reviving the forgotten teachings of the historical Masters of Defence and fighting schools with trying to sportify the Art something in my humble opinion is happening, you see more and more rules for tournaments being discussed all over the internet, more and more focus on how, when, how many, what rules, what equipment for tournaments (for me sportifying), and less focus on scholarship... you see more and more focus on tournaments than in trying to revive the teachings as they were...

Again, what I see is ARMA made the homework and made it for the whole community in more than three decades... isn't this good?

Today MARE is an official "Intangible Cultural Heritage", something for the whole community to be proud...

*So ARMA was invited (because of it's trayectory in many decades of effort)
*ARMA in +30 years of effort was able to promote Martial Arts of Renassaince Europe as a official "Intangible Cultural Heritage" and this effort was made for the whole community, now what you do and the other groups in Europe (and in America, Africa, Asia, that study MARE) do is an "Intangible Cultural Heritage", and an official martial art (how can you be angry with this?)
*If you wish to know what we do, ARMA does do open seminars you can contact JC, it is on the website, we have an open forum for discussion, we share source material, we share articles, videos, photos
*There is no restriction written or not that prevent us from going to participating outside, we are just not interested in sportifying the Art (we do see IMO all this tournament with rules as sportifying the Art)

So please explain why having promoted MARE to an "Intangible Cultural Heritage" is such a bad thing? why promoting MARE is such a bad thing? why doing this things for the whole community (ARMA in it) is bad?

[Sal Bertucci]

So, by means of an cloak-and-dagger operation (since nothing of the sort was announced or put out for discussion)

Please, WoMAU has been around since 2002. If anything the reason why ARMA has accomplished this where other groups have not is that IT WAS IMPORTANT to us to establish HEMA, RMA, MARE, whatever you want to call it as a recognized martial arts. Other groups have been focusing on getting tournaments together, and trying to network them so that we can have a "World Champion" longsword fighter. Seriously?! in a field that can be (at max) considered 50 years old? Anyone could have done this. It was just more important to us.

Also, the fact that we avoid sportification was actually a boon to us getting accepted in the first place.

"A rising tide raises all ships." You are now part of a internationally recognized martial art. Congratulations. I put it to you to name EVEN ONE other organization that had an application concurrent with ours that was beaten out by our "cloak and dagger" tactics!

I have nothing against those that desire to fight tournaments, and I'm sure that the top tier people in them can be good fighters; however, I maintain my position that "There is a difference between martial art and martial sport; the sport application of a combat system is not a martial art."

[CalebChow]

Hans,

I really don't understand your comments... I speak for myself not for the ARMA and this is my personal opinion:

*ARMA was invited to join the World Martial Arts Union
*Martial Arts of Renassaince Europe are now recognized as martial art, the ARMA made the case for our art to be an "Intangible Cultural Heritage". I think this is something to celebrate, don't you think?

*ARMA has made accessible to the public more articles, and manuals than any other group or association...
*ARMA focuses on researching and reviving the forgotten teachings of the historical Masters of Defence and fighting schools, we ARE NOT interested in sportifying the ART (tournaments)... sparring, freeplay for us IMO is a tool not a goal...

Now IMO, ARMA was invited for it's merits (+30 years of research and efforts in reviving these lost teachings, and preventing contamination from outside the sources, and demonstrating that the Art can be revived from source literature... all this again in +30 years of effort), we have not lost focus in our mission of researching and reviving the forgotten teachings of the historical Masters of Defence and fighting schools with trying to sportify the Art something in my humble opinion is happening, you see more and more rules for tournaments being discussed all over the internet, more and more focus on how, when, how many, what rules, what equipment for tournaments (for me sportifying), and less focus on scholarship... you see more and more focus on tournaments than in trying to revive the teachings as they were...

Again, what I see is ARMA made the homework and made it for the whole community in more than three decades... isn't this good?

Today MARE is an official "Intangible Cultural Heritage", something for the whole community to be proud...

*So ARMA was invited (because of it's trayectory in many decades of effort)
*ARMA in +30 years of effort was able to promote Martial Arts of Renassaince Europe as a official "Intangible Cultural Heritage" and this effort was made for the whole community, now what you do and the other groups in Europe (and in America, Africa, Asia, that study MARE) do is an "Intangible Cultural Heritage", and an official martial art (how can you be angry with this?)
*If you wish to know what we do, ARMA does do open seminars you can contact JC, it is on the website, we have an open forum for discussion, we share source material, we share articles, videos, photos
*There is no restriction written or not that prevent us from going to participating outside, we are just not interested in sportifying the Art (we do see IMO all this tournament with rules as sportifying the Art)

So please explain why having promoted MARE to an "Intangible Cultural Heritage" is such a bad thing? why promoting MARE is such a bad thing? why doing this things for the whole community (ARMA in it) is bad?

Good points, Jorge; but I think Hans' main issue is the fact that ARMA (or more specifically, John Clements) was chosen to represent an international community that largely does not consider him to be their representative.

ARMA is arguably the largest, most international, oldest, and most influential of the organizations of the art, but it's still only the "largest minority" of what is now a worldwide movement.

Perhaps we could appeal to ARMA's origins and the fact that it was only after Hank Reinhardt's founding of HACA in 1992 that suddenly dozens of HEMA organization started popping up, but that was then--and this is now, almost twenty years after.

All in all I hope WoMAU's decision does benefit the art's revival as a whole, but I'm actually uncertain as to how best to deal with the HEMA community's opposition...assuming it's actually a concern for them.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing more interaction between ARMA and the other groups, as long as there is always ARMA with its traditional approach (ie no tournaments, rules, etc).

[Jonathan Hill]

This is true, and to understand how the Europeans feel you need to look at it from a prospective of being ‘outside ARMA.’ What is kind of an obvious thing that occurs to the Europeans is that ARMA, which may be international, is an organization originated and largely based in the US and has been selected to represent the martial arts of Europe. This is similar to a US based Karate organization being selected to represent the martial arts of Japan, or a Peruvian organization selected to represent the martial arts of Mexico. This can be offensive to the groups in Europe who are working on their own arts.

I will grant that if any group has a claim to speak it is probably ARMA as they/you are the largest, oldest and most organized group in the HEMA community. It is also the most controversial when you consider the policies to keep things secret and not interact with the ‘rest of’ the community that is not ARMA. Thus when it is stated that ARMA is the spokes-group for the greater HEMA community why the rest of the community may get a bit offended.

The one thing I hope (I can only hope this is taken with a grain of salt) is that this honor will help ARMA as a whole realize the need to make sure everything that comes out of the Directors office is run through a PR person first.

[CalebChow]

This is true, and to understand how the Europeans feel you need to look at it from a prospective of being ‘outside ARMA.’ What is kind of an obvious thing that occurs to the Europeans is that ARMA, which may be international, is an organization originated and largely based in the US and has been selected to represent the martial arts of Europe. This is similar to a US based Karate organization being selected to represent the martial arts of Japan, or a Peruvian organization selected to represent the martial arts of Mexico. This can be offensive to the groups in Europe who are working on their own arts.

This brings up an interesting point that I'd also like to add: The issue of language and international potential.

From a purely pragmatic perspective for an aspiring practitioner, ARMA provides by far the easiest starting place for any group worldwide to start their practice of this art largely because of its use of English and, subsequently, its ability to easily go across oceans.
While most other European websites--it's not their fault, but I can't read a word of it!

If groups worldwide want to learn this art, how could they if every group used only their local European language? Nobody except the local groups would know the art even exists until everything is translated and officially presented to...uh....an international organization dedicated to the preservation of intangible cultural heritage under the patronage of, say, UNESCO.
I remember trying to do research on this art back in 2004, and the only website with anything on it I could find that wasn't in Italian, German, or Polish was ARMA's.

How can we expect a group that uses dominantly German or Italian etc. to be able to have the art reach curious people in, say, Korea? Or Hong Kong? Yet Lance Chan has done just that, largely thanks to the availability and accessibility of ARMA and the interest generated by it.

As a result, ARMA being an international organization that provides excellent opportunities to start one's own local group was probably a major factor in WoMAU's decision.
ARMA has by far the greatest potential for growth of all other groups, and is no doubt the reason many of these other groups exist at all.

Just my thoughts.

[Jorge Cortines]

This is true, and to understand how the Europeans feel you need to look at it from a prospective of being ‘outside ARMA.’ What is kind of an obvious thing that occurs to the Europeans is that ARMA, which may be international, is an organization originated and largely based in the US and has been selected to represent the martial arts of Europe. This is similar to a US based Karate organization being selected to represent the martial arts of Japan, or a Peruvian organization selected to represent the martial arts of Mexico. This can be offensive to the groups in Europe who are working on their own arts.

I still don't understand. By this way of thinking:
the Greeks should be offended because a German was the main researcher that made excavations in Mycene and found a golden mask that we call the Mask of Agamemnon, a British was the main reasearcher and made excavations and reconstructed partially the palace of Knossoss, and Turks should be offended too because it was the same German (and then came a British) that made excavations in Mycene and establish that the ruins were Troy and Mexicans should be very much offended, because Italians, British, Germans, French were senior researchers at Mayan ruins, and a Russian woman decifer the Mayan codices...

This is a strange (for lack of vocabulary) way of thinking, IMO.
Should the world throw out the window the research of the Maya so many Europeans in America made because they were not born in America? Does the Europeans that still research the Maya in Mexico and Central America lack validity (or are unfit) in their work or should be prohibited that they continue studying/researching in America because they are stationed/born at Europe?

This is a very very strange way of thinking for a XXI century modern man... IMO

Then why again should "Europeans" (sorry for the generalization, but that is the way that has been expressed in the thread, I know it is not all Europeans) feel offended that today Martial Arts of Renassaince Europe is considered a "Intangible Cultural Heritage" for the World and is now a recognized Martial Art?

-"but I think Hans' main issue is the fact that ARMA (or more specifically, John Clements) was chosen to represent an international community that largely does not consider him to be their representative. "

???? JC has spearheaded the promotion of Martial Arts of Renassaince Europe since three decades ago... he's done tons of research, network with the academia (academic and technical consultants) published material, made accessible source literature, trained, be critic about contaminating the Art, demostrated that the Art can be reconstructed from source literature... he was invited because of this merits I think...

[Hans Meier]

I still don't understand. By this way of thinking:
the Greeks should be offended because a German was the main researcher that made excavations in Mycene and found a golden mask that we call the Mask of Agamemnon, a British was the main reasearcher and made excavations and reconstructed partially the palace of Knossoss, and Turks should be offended too because it was the same German (and then came a British) that made excavations in Mycene and establish that the ruins were Troy and Mexicans should be very much offended, because Italians, British, Germans, French were senior researchers at Mayan ruins, and a Russian woman decifer the Mayan codices...

This is a strange (for lack of vocabulary) way of thinking, IMO.
Should the world throw out the window the research of the Maya so many Europeans in America made because they were not born in America? Does the Europeans that still research the Maya in Mexico and Central America lack validity (or are unfit) in their work or should be prohibited that they continue studying/researching in America because they are stationed/born at Europe?

This is a very very strange way of thinking for a XXI century modern man... IMO

No, the only thing strange is your comparison. I can't help it but if you do not understand the difference between what you named above and a recent man claiming to be the representative of a recent interest group that did not appoint him to such a position you should not participate in this discussion. This is like me going over to Britain and saying: So listen up Brits, I'm your prime minister now and my first legal act is ...

Then why again should "Europeans" (sorry for the generalization, but that is the way that has been expressed in the thread, I know it is not all Europeans) feel offended that today Martial Arts of Renassaince Europe is considered a "Intangible Cultural Heritage" for the World and is now a recognized Martial Art?

Yes it is. And, as can be seen all ober the net, enough americans are outraged as well.

???? JC has spearheaded the promotion of Martial Arts of Renassaince Europe since three decades ago... he's done tons of research, network with the academia (academic and technical consultants) published material, made accessible source literature, trained, be critic about contaminating the Art, demostrated that the Art can be reconstructed from source literature... he was invited because of this
merits I think...

Now IMO, ARMA was invited for it's merits (+30 years of research and efforts in reviving these lost teachings, and preventing contamination from outside the sources, and demonstrating that the Art can be revived from source literature...

When I look at the various youtube videos the ARMA clearly does not bear up to this statement. You can see heaps of stuff that is nowhere to be found in literature of the period. Also you see traditions being mixed etc. which also is a form of contamination, by my, admittedly very stringent, standards.

*ARMA focuses on researching and reviving the forgotten teachings of the historical Masters of Defence and fighting schools, we ARE NOT interested in sportifying the ART (tournaments)... sparring, freeplay for us IMO is a tool not a goal...

When I look (again) at youtube videos I seee a different picture, namely exactly the same tournaments that can be seen all over the world: unrealistic wasters, tournament optimized "techniques"...
Besides that, no one has ever expressed interest in sportifying the art but if that were true, how then can the ARMA represent people with a different goal then their own?

So please explain why having promoted MARE to an "Intangible Cultural Heritage" is such a bad thing? why promoting MARE is such a bad thing? why doing this things for the whole community (ARMA in it) is bad?

Stop claiming that, nobody ever said that! The bad thing is that the ARMA usurped that position.

[Tyrone Artur Budzin]

Seems after taking a good step forward with the art we have just taken 10 steps backward with the way the community is reacting to this news.

Call it HEMA, RMA, MARE or whatever you want but the mutual goal is still to recreate this art and share it with the WHOLE WORLD.. isn't it?

And why do we have to squabble over the fact ARMA took the first step to get it recognized by an international governing body? One way or the other someone was going to get this done at some point in time anyway.

I feel that hate and pride might be the future causes which will destroy our earnest endeavors to bring the art back into existence...

[Jorge Cortines]

Hans,

What I find amusing is the statement that "Europeans" fill offended because someone made the homework for them, took the effort for them, took the risks and was invited to present the "Just Cause" for our Art for them, was successful, and was invited to take part...

How owns the Art?
Europeans?
Americans?
Japanese?
Hollywood?

Well today the whole world owns it...

It just sounds awful for you to say that "Europeans" are enraged... and not substanciating as to why, the reason... what is the cause of the fire?

It was something that was not done on voting but was weighted on merits... (+30 years of merits), that is why JC was invited... It is of no importance how many friends you have, how many beers you drink with them after practice, it was based on merits not on popularity, can JC display that the Art can be reconstructed from source literature... yes, can it be done without contamination of outside material... yes, is it a martial art? yes!! can you display/perform abilities, technics, done from the sources... yes! do you promote MARE... yes, ad some other questions... but you get the idea. Can someone else have done it... probably... but were they invited in the first place?

Is this difficult to understand?

You said "When I look at the various youtube videos the ARMA clearly does not bear up to this statement. You can see heaps of stuff that is nowhere to be found in literature of the period. Also you see traditions being mixed etc. which also is a form of contamination, by my, admittedly very stringent, standards."

Open a new thread on this topic, and point where you say it is contaminated, so not to derail this thread... I have never seen in any of the ARMA vids that we use stuff outside MARE... please show proof...

Tournaments in ARMA? do you refer to prize playings perhaps? way different than tournaments...

Yes sportifying, tournaments everywhere, discussions of rules and what counts or discount points all over the place... what is the reason for this tournaments is it to test a person (prize playing?), is it to test a theory of a technic? are they being used as tools? I don't think so, this tournaments have a point system, semifinals, and finals and champions, this are sport versions of the martial art.

In ARMA, we are not interested in dealing with a sportify version of MARE... We respect that people do it, we have no problem with this as long as they don't promote a the sportified version as the actual martial art, in ARMA our concern is MARE...

Coming back to the issue, JC who is from ARMA has been invited to the World Martial Arts Union... but he again was invited...

Why weren't others invited, I don't know... but I know JC was invited because of his merits, and he did his homework, and took the effort to make the case... Do you know what is his rol there? or are just reacting as to why him and not us?

Make your case as to why JC is "unfit", present evidence... it seems this is the argument... that enraged "Europeans"...

Saying someone is "unfit" because you don't like his ways of expressing himself is not an argument about fighting arts...

Make your case on this issue on this forum for us to see why, and please do start the thread of contamination and show proof of this... as you were the one who mentioned it, now I ask for you to prove it...

Tyrone:

I agree absolutly with everything you said, whom ever did it first would have had to take the shots from other people, as to why them and not us? instead of celebrating that all of us that practice the Art have taken a bigger step, that the invitation and the presentation were so good for the Art to be taken as an "Intangible Cultural Heritage", and that someone who from within MARE was invited to participate.