Exchange between east and west?

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John_Clements
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby John_Clements » Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:16 pm

I said only that I was including a chapter on actual historical incidents of encounters.

BTW, as a historian of fencing, I have been investigating for some time any accounts of martial encounters between Europeans and Japanese during the Renaissance, and I am fairly well read on the major works on contacts available in English, as well as having a large quantity of notes provided by foriegn contacts.

Unfortunately, there has developed a ridiculous amount of modern folklore and urban myth surrounding imaginary encounters between Japanese samurai swordsmen and European (esp. Portuguese) fencers. On the Internet lately there persists the rumor that there exist in some Lisbon archives records of a purported series of demonstrations by Portuguese fencers for the Shogun. I have found no evidence but there very well could be something in Lisbon (or even in Japan). Both I and my colleagues within academia have been unsuccessful in locating any factual evidence of surviving records of Portuguese fencers dueling in Japan that have been rumored to exist. I have contacted scholars in both Lisbon and Japan and nothing has turned up. I suspect it is urban myth.

There are a few tales and myths about supposed sword duels between Europeans and Japanese (some of which I have even heard from ranking Japanese stylists in America) –--but given the damage such encounters would have had on sensitive trade and relations as well as the limited geographic area Europeans visited, I find these claims unlikely and I have only read of a few vague bar fights and occasional street brawls among sailors and low ranking bushi or commoners. (My personal feelings are that if such encounters really occurred, the Japanese would have gotten the worse end of it against a rapier---hence the reason we have not ever heard about it from them. If it had been the other way around I am sure they would never cease reminding us of it.) Additionally, these sources were ignorant of the actual documented incidents I have compiled, so I find their claims suspect right there.

There were a few incidents of drunken Dutch and English sailors getting in streetfights, but again, we have no reason to believe their opponents were true samurai rather than just armed commoners or low ranking footmen.

However, there indeed was hand to hand fighting on board ships on several occasions between actual samurai warriors (not just foot soldiers) and Portuguese sailors and soldiers (on one occasion a ship's captain killed with his sword and buckler several Japanese who boarded in abattle involving more than 2,000 attackers). There is also a letter from another captain who brags that after one other minor encounter in Nagasaki “the Japanese no longer considered the Europeans just tradesmen and priests, but knew now they were also warriors."

There were also occasions where Japanese mercenaries fought right along side Portuguese who besieged the Spaniards and their own Japanese mercenary allies in a fortress in the Philippines (!). What a fight that would have been (make a good movie, I am sure). But, sadly, no real details are available, at least not in English that I know of.

There was also a battle of Dutch and English against Portuguese and Japanese hold up in some South Seas island fortress as well. And most incredibly, an account survives where the shogun was actually negotiating a plan with the Portuguese to invade Formosa using their ships and cannon with his troops as a stepping-stone to a full invasion of China (!).

Finallly, I do know of one extraordinary account of a Spaniard who toured through several provinces with an armed entourage of halberdiers and armed black slaves, being honored as a guest by several warlords, no less. But no details survive of his adventures.

Details of all this will be in my extensive article.

JC
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:47 pm

Is there anywhere I can find these documents Jeanry Chandler mentioned regarding the Portugese and Japanese?


John seems to have answered this quite exhaustively (with a lot of tantalizing information about other incidents!) but as for the anecdote I mentioned, which as John said could have been apocryphal, IIRC a Portugese guy posted this to a discussion thread in a sport fencing forum, and somebody linked it to the ARMA forum. This was a few months ago I think.

So you should be able to find that post if you go through the forum threads here through several pages. I do not remember the title of the thread but I'm sure it's something to do with Samurai or kataanas.

The guy who posted the anecdote on the sport fencing forum claimed that the original documentation of these duels was in the Portugese national archive. IIRC He claimed to be a scholar of old Portugese and to have read them personally, and that they were accessable, though written in "old" Portugese.

He did also post his email address.

Hope that helps.

Jeanry
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James Hudec
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby James Hudec » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:50 pm

Thanks Jeanry.

P.S. How do you include quotations from other posts as part of your message?
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George Turner
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby George Turner » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:54 pm

Marco Polo reported that he and his father and uncle were employed as bodyguards and military advisors, even building trebuchets for Kublai Khan. Their services in this regard were so valuable that the great Khan was reluctant to let them leave, which isn't what you'd expect of simple Venetian traders in the heart of the Eastern martial arts world, Kublai Khan's court in Beijing.

As an aside, when you get to the Shaolin monastery you can study Zen Buddhism, as spread by the many Buddhist monks, and specifically Batuo, a monk from India.

Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, was born in Nepal, son of a Sakya tribal chief. The Sakya were part of the Indo-Persian warrior caste ( ksatriya). Their traditional religion was Vedic, related to Celtic religions, and the languages would be Sanskrit and relatives such as Nepalese, all in the Indo-Persian branch of Indo-European languages and pretty close to Irish Gaelic. He taught in Uttar Pradesh, also ruled by Indo-Europeans (Indo-Persians). So you end up with lots of Indo-European warrior caste monks running around throughout Asia.

When you get to Japan you'll find that Kobo Daishi, (774-835 AD) studied Sanskrit in a Buddhist temple in China. His sword was called "ama-goi-ken", a straight, double-edged sword with a ring pommel, now the traditional Japanese temple sword.

So there are most certainly some Indo-European influences on Asian martial arts, though I wouldn't exactly say Asian arts derived from such influences, since all of Asia had their own warrior traditions, armies, and histories, and each culture takes an art or idea and makes it its own.

However, saying all martial arts are equivalent in a bit of cultural relativism is also vacuous, since this would apply across time as well as culture, and if a series of innovations in military arts was somehow merely equivalent to the pre-innovation style then why bother innovating?

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John_Clements
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby John_Clements » Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:09 am

At one time someone had posted here afew years back a reference from Chinese sourcesto tall blonde barbarians with large swords having served as border guards on the great wall in like the 13th century? Soudn familiar to anyone?

Also, Jeanry, what is that guy's email who claimed to have read these Portuguese things but never took a single note on them?
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:09 pm

I tried to email him once and got no response, but I dont have those email logs on this computer. I still think the link to the original sport fencing forum post is still somewhere here in your forum archive though, I'll look through the posts and see if I can find it. I'll also try googling to internet because I believe I posted on that sport fencing forum with some follow up comments, I may be able to find it based on my usual pseudonym "drifter bob"

Jeanry
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:22 pm

Just found it.

Ok the guy went by the name "Lusitano" pretty generic for someone from Portugal. His email is [email]joaopedromorais@netcabo.pt">joaopedromorais@netcabo.pt</a>

Here is his original statement on the Fencing.Net forum, which I do not necessarily endorse or make any claim of being true!

"Has you know the Portuguese were the first europeans to reach Japan. They were responsable for introducing firearms in medieval Japan.
I am portuguese and I was, in my young age, a fencing athlete. I am also have as a hobbie, history, particulary, portuguese history.
In fact there are some records in our national historic archive of more than a dozen encounters of portuguese soldiers and samurais. These encounters are very well described and detailed.
All ended with the same result except one. The samurai was killed in some or wounded ( but killing themselves afterwards in shame) the only register of a killed portuguese soldier was because he had such an amount of sake in his blood that he couldn't stand straigth. The Samurai that killed him was killed in the next day in a sword duel with a portuguese sailor in top condition.
This descriptions are available in "Torre do Tombo" our national archive institution and are available to anyone.
This kind of stories were ofuscated by the overhelming interest of the japanese in the firearms and by the fact that at that time historians did not bother to compare techniques and the samurai did not have the fame and aura that they have nowadays, they were just another guy with a sword. For the portuguese, such duel victories did not amount to nothing, that's what we can understand from the descriptions, that are made along other ones describing the garments and costums and other trivial things of that strange and newly found culture."

He then followed up with this post:

"Portuguese soldiers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These documents are available in microfilm in the archive, to preserve the actual documents, i know that you can buy copy's of the microfilms and then use your scanner to transfer them to the computer . I've done that a number of ocassions, you need to have a good scanner. The problem his that I take 1 hour to translate the page from the portuguese used in the 16th century to the modern one, not because of the difference in words but the caligraphy , very artistic and well draw words that sometimes make it hard to understand immediatelly.
I do not know if you can buy them from abroad (the microfilms), I could get this information for you. And you need someone to translate them for you.
I come across with this fascinating descriptions when I was investigating the jesuits work in Japan. this information is in bits and parts among a considerable large amount of documents from that period.
I will try and get the microfilms identity number that contains that description and forward it to you. I will also try to know if there is a contact number in wich you can order, from abroad, those specific microfilms containing those documents. One thing I can tell , each copy costs more or less 25 Euros, and contains a lot of documents. I have the advantage of consulting them without actually need to buy them.
I am reseaching in the genealogy area now, but when i get some time free i can try and send you that information translated to english.

I will contact you as soon as i have some news.
My email <a href="mailto:joaopedromorais@netcabo.pt"[/email]

...which he never did. I did email him at one point and he did not respond. It might help to email him in Portugese. At one time I thought this guy was on the level, now I dont know if it's a hoax or for real, of course it would be very interesting if it was.

John please let me know if you are able to follow up on this successfully.

The thread is here:
http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?s=d12f136b76bcf98b16bddeb85140888a&amp;t=9153&amp;page=1&amp;pp=30

Jeanry
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

steve hick
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby steve hick » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:06 pm

They seem to have just started their automated catalog/indexing system, but there is POC information on their site

http://www.iantt.pt/index.html

Unfortunately the Portuguese/Japanese material is too late to use the medieval index, which is searchable.

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John_Clements
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby John_Clements » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:59 pm

Well, as I said, we have several contacts over there, and one of our Medieval advisors is even a Portuguese language specialist, but they have found nothing so far along those lines.

JC
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GeorgeHill
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby GeorgeHill » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:35 am

Hmm... Still, it's worth following up on. I would try if I had any idea how to speak portugease. Perhaps we should direct the scholar who speaks the languge to follow up on the latest 'potential' leads?

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JohnDemick
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby JohnDemick » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:15 am

If anything, the origins of European Martial arts probably come from the cave drawings found in France, showing that there was a systematic form of fighting well before contact with non-Europeans, proabably well before anyone else had one.

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Stacy Clifford
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby Stacy Clifford » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:12 pm

If you could prove that, we'd have to start ACMA - The Association for Caveman Martial Arts. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />
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JohnDemick
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Re: Exchange between east and west?

Postby JohnDemick » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:02 pm

Hahahaa!

Well, I dont know HOW complex it was 15000 years ago, but it was the earliest recorded source of wrestling as far as I know. Im sure the Europeans had 12000 more years to make a system before Pankration. I believe martial arts in most cultures is much older then we give it credit for, and I'm not a big fan of the theory that complex fighting arts in Europe and other civilizations owe its origins to any single culture, I believe it evolved universally throughout Europe and the rest of the world. Humans need to fight in order to survive, therefor they make fighting systems. Sure the first manuals may have been recorded in the past 800 years, but we out of all people should know that just because it wasn't recorded doesn't mean it never existed.


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