Blocking and Versetzen

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Jake_Norwood
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Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:53 am

In this thread here Stu McDermaid, Stew Feil, and I began a conversation about the differences between blocking and versetzen. Please read those posts (there's really just 3 of them needed) before adding to this thread, so we don't re-tread old info. I'm starting this thread so as to un-hi-jack another thread that was in progress.

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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Jake_Norwood » Sat Jul 05, 2003 10:34 am

Actually, Stu, Absetzen is setting aside. Versetzen is displacement. Otherwise we agree perfectly.

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David Lindholm
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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby David Lindholm » Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:44 pm

Hi!
Just a thought. I think that the meaning of versetzen changes somewhat between the old manuals. Ringeck does for example state that they are explicitly four strikes ( Meisterhau), used to counter either an incomig attack or to break open a guard. It does not include any form of moving the body out of the way ( if that is what you meant). It is always a strike at the opopnents blade.It is also something different from the absetzen
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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Jake_Norwood » Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:40 pm

David-

Yes, exactly.

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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Casper Bradak » Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:15 am

Don't you think it's condusive to the technique, even if not mentioned in the manuals, to traverse, even slightly, with the versetzen? I think that footwork should be assumed with it.
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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Jake_Norwood » Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:36 pm

Meyer is always advising movement, usually out toward the right, with most every eaction. I'd say "yes." What I took David to mean (maybe I was wrong) was that "voiding" isn't really versetzen (though you are displacing yourself...); not that one should versetz when standing still.

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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Stuart McDermid » Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:32 pm

Hi Guys,

Sorry, I said I would start a new thread and then went and had a really busy weekend and didn't get near a computer. Anyway, here I am. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I interpret "setting aside" to be any blade action where seizure of the initiative is not the goal.
It is the equivalent of the "oh [censored]" parry and I strongly agree with David that Versetzen has nothing to do with body movement.

Here's what I intended to post about.

Now just because Ringeck thinks that hard stops are a bad idea, it is foolish to consider this to be a universal rule. Quite a few English single handed sword treatises advise to bear blows with stopping parries. I don't want to start the edge vs flat thing back up again but I defy anyone to disprove my claim that to make a stopping parry work, one needs to use the edge of the sword and simply just cover to line that is being attacked.
I have a nasty habit myself of not turning my edge enough when parrying blows to my low right which causes all sorts of problems.
Cheers,
Stu.

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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Jake_Norwood » Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:32 pm

Okay, we're not quite on the same page, here.

Absetzen is "setting aside"

Versetzen is "displacement."

These aren't exactly the same thing, and "blocking," regardless of it's usefulness (or lack thereof) is neither of them.

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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Stuart McDermid » Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:13 am

Guys can we differentiate between Stew and Stu? This is kinda driving me (and most likely Stew) kinda nuts. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Versetzen AFAIK are four of the five Meisterhau. Each is a counter for one of the four main guards. Krumphau counters Ochs, Zwerchau counters Vom Tach, Shielhau counters Pflug and Shietelhau counters Alber. These are not just for breaking guards but are also used to make offensively charged defensive actions.

Absetzen AFAIK is the act of "setting aside" an attack using and wind between either ochs and/or pflug to do so.
These are essentially rather like the meisterhau except they threaten a thrust after or during the parry rather than a cut.

Stew, my point was simply that although the Lichtenaur lineage of Longsword teaches that purely defensive stops are a poor way to fence, we shouldn't automatically assume that all masters do.

Also, Silver's weapon was the basket hilted shortsword rather than the backsword.
Does anyone want to talk about shortsword/backsword? I suppose we should start another new thread if folks do.
Cheers,
Stu.

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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Richard Strey » Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:59 am

Since everyone has been talking about sources and I happened to come across this nice piece of text in Meyer last night, I wanted to share it with you. It's the intro to Chapter 5, in which he shortly talks about Versetzen before moving on to Handarbeit. Following, you'll find the original Text (thanks to the Freifechter ) followed by my little on-the-fly translation. Sorry for any repetitions or anything, they are there in the original, as well. And I've had only three hours of sleep last night... I hope this is of interest to you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Original:
"Vom versetzen ein nützliche vermanung.
Cap. 5.
Nach dem das Fechten auff zweyen fürnemen stucken beruhet / als nemlich zum ersten auff den Häuwen mit welchen du dein feindt begerst zustillen / dann zum andern auff dem Versetzen / das ist wie du die Häuw so von deinem feindt auff dich gericht möchst abschaffen / krafftloß und die nichtsöllig machen solt. Wie du aber die Häuw volbringen und ins werck richten / ist hievor gnugsam erkleret / dieweil aber ein jeder Hauw so wol zur gegenwehr deins feindts streich / damit abzuschaffen gebraucht wirt / als zur verletzung seins leibs / haben die Häuw ohn mit lehrung der versatzungen nicht können gelehrt werden / derwegen wie du bißher gelehrt die Häuw

hauwen

XV v

hauwen bistu zugleich auch wie du die Häuw abtragen solt / gelert und underricht worden / dises ob es wol mit den Häuwen wie jetzt gehört / nit kann abgesondert werden / will doch von nöten sein / hie von insonderheit mit underschiedlicher theilung zuhandlen. Merck derwegen anfenglich das des Versetzens zweyerley ist / das erste ist da du ohn allen sondern vortheil / gemeniglich nur aus forcht versetzest / in welchem du nichts anders thust / dann mit deinem Wehr / so du deinem gegenfechter entgegen heltst die streich die von im beschehen aufffahest / auch nit begerest ihn zu beschedigen / allein benüget an dem / wie du ohn schaden von ihm abziehen mögest.

Wenn du aber zu disem versetzen mit gewalt unnd ubereilen getrungen wurdest / so sihe doch das du dich mit abtritten endtledigest / und mit vortheil zum Vor wider kommen mögest / Von dieser versatzung nun / thut auch Lichtenawer meldung da er spricht.

Vor versetzen hüt dich / Geschichts dir not es mühet dich.

Mit welchem er das versetzen darumb nit gar will verbieten / nemlich das du nichts anders dann zuhauwen lehren solt / dan wie es dein schad / wie droben gehört / wann du dich auff das versetzen wolltest gewehnen / dieweil es an dem zuvil / so du zu versetzen gedrungen wurdest / Also ist es nicht nutz so du mit streichen uberbolderst / gleichfals auch hingegen unbedacht gleichsam mit zugethanen augen hinwider mit seinen streichen zuglich hinein Hauwen wolltest / welches dann keinem Fechten / sonder vil mehr einem unbesunnenen Bawren getrösch gleichförmig.

Aber umb mehrer nutz willens / will ichs Hauwen und versetzen so mit einem streich geschicht alhie abtheilen / und dich lehren allein wie du solche Häuw zu versatzung brauchen solt / welches dann auch auff zweierley weiß mag beschehen / Erstlich da du deines gegenparts streich zuvor abtregst / oder mit einem Hauw abweisest / darnach wenn du im die vorwehr genommen / mit einem Hauw seinem leib zueilest.

Die


XVI r

Die ander Art zuversetzen ist / da du dein widerpart in einem streich zuglich versetzest und verletzest / welches die alten fürnemlich wie den billich loben / daher das sprichwort erwachsen / ein rechter Fechter versetzet nicht / sonder Hauwet man so Hauwet er auch / trit man so trit er auch / sticht man so sticht er auch."

Translation:
"A useful caution about Versetzen.
Chapter 5
Since fencing is based on mainly two parts, first on the strikes with which you try to go after your enemy and second on the versetzen, which is how you should put off, make powerless and useless the strikes that your emeny has directed at you. How you should make the strikes and put them to use has been thoroughly described earlier, but since every strike is used as well to counter your enemy's strike, as well as to hurt his body, it was not possible to teach the strikes whithout teaching the displacements at the same time. That's why you have been taught to strike

as well as displacing the strikes. And even though this [displacing], as just heard, can't be separated from the strikes, it will be neccessary to cover this now especially in different parts. Take note that there are basically two kinds of versetzen. The first being that you displace without any special advantage [to you] only out of fear, in which you don't do anything but holding your weapon towards your enemy, catching the strikes he makes. You don't try to hurt him either, satisfied with getting away without being hurt.

If you are forced into this kind of versetzen by being overwhelmed, look that you manage this by stepping away and getting into an advantegeous Vor again. Liechtenauer speaks of this kind of Versetzen as well.

Beware of Versetzen, if it happens, it will cause you trouble.

With which he doesn't want to totally prohibit displacing, instead that you should learn nothing different than to strike. Because it will be your disadvantage, as heard above, if you would get used to versetzen, because if there is too much if this, you will be forced into versetzen. Also, it will not useful to overextend oneself with strikes, or, as if with closed eyes, strike into him simultaneously with his strikes. Which would not be like fencing, but rather like a rash bear.

But for several benefits, I will now cover striking and how to displace with such a strike here and teach you how to use such strikes for displacing. Which may happen in one of two ways. First, to displace or redirect your opponent's strike and then, once you have taken out his defence, work towards his body with a strike.

The other way to displace is to displace and hurt your opponent in one strike, which the elders commend. Out of this grew the proverb:
A real fencer does not displace.
If you strike, he strikes.
If you step, he steps.
If you thrust, he thrusts as well."

[Edited for spelling]

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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Stuart McDermid » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:25 am

Nice Job Richard,

A few lessons there folks.
Stu.

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Re: Blocking and Versetzen

Postby Bart Walczak » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:54 am

Of course "Meisterhau" being versetzen are the interpretations of Ringeck, von Danzig and Jud Lew, the "mainstream" Liechtenauer. However if you consider Doebringer, a new version of versetzen appears, which is no different than just striking his blow with your own.

You can also find the term versetzen in Gladiatoria, where it is used to denote a displacement or general defence.

I guess it's a kind of general word encompassing many ideas. And absetzen is just a specific form of versetzen.


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