What would you do in a filmed rapier duel?

[Allen Johnson]

It's all but official but I've just landed a gig with an independent film to put together a rapier duel in their new movie. I've talked with the producer twice and had a few chats with the director and we are meeting Fri morning to go over some of the details. So....since I know most of us would LOVE this opportunity, here's a chance <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> What would you like to see in a movie rapier duel? Obviously there are still alot of things to factor in. Tomorrow I'll have a better idea of what the director wants and some of the details of what actual action needs to take place via the script. I have alot of my own ideas but there are alot of you that know alot more than me about this stuff and I'd love to get any and all suggestions. The last few days have been spent steering them away from ebay 'rapiers' and doing my best to find a happy medium between safe, funtional swords and cheap, within budget ones. I also do have a chance to get the actual part as an actor for the film as well- auditions for that are next week. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you cant tell I'm excited.

[Guest]

If the director is any good and has the time and budget, he'll probably want more than just choreography. He'd want to see an independent story developing within the fight that supplements the big picture and is expressed through the techniques the fencers are using.

Your duty as choreographer is to examine and understand the characters; their attitudes, temperaments, and their significance in the script.

You use this knowledge to motivate the techniques that crafts a story within the fight.

A good example of this would be the final knife scene in "The Hunted". Tommy Lee Jones and Benicio Del Toro square off for one final duel.

It's obvious that Del Toro's character is clearly the better swordsman, but even if he beats Tommy Lee Jones, he knows he's going to prison. He figures it's better if he dies.

So he fights to the best of his ability but the techniques he uses to carve up Tommy Lee Jones are directed to non vital targets, and when there is a vital target available Del Toro carves only the skin careful not to kill Tommy Lee Jones.

This fight heightened the emotional impact of the
Student/teacher relationship, the personalities of each character and their significant roles and relationships with Nature and Society.

[JohnDemick]

I would have them do matrix-like acrobatics while still keeping all the moves of fencing intact. hey, it worked well with The Musketeer. hehehe, yeah, i know its not realistic in a real fight, but Eastern chereographers have been putting bs moves in their fight scenes for years, maybe we should start doing it too <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jared L. Cass]

Wow, what a great oppertunity!

Hmmm, lets see....a short list would be:

A hilt smash to the face which smooshes the hell out of the guys nose accompanieed(sp?) by a spray of blood as the sinus pressure is released (think "Raging Bull" and "Dead Presidents").

A leg hook which throws the guy across a number of tables or down some steps.

A kick to ye' olde family jewels. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Some head butts.

Basically...lot's of close in "past the point" grappling so that the audience gets a feel what actual rapier combat was all about <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Casper Bradak]

Other than what I already mentioned on the SLC elist, how about numerous rapid kills with the point and hardly any blade contact or time consumed. As lethal and uninteresting as possible hehe
(special effects permitting, ram it through a couple of skulls)
Maybe a couple of sticks to both off hands held out and weapon hands <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Stacy Clifford]

Be sure and make use of the off-hand. If a character has a dagger or buckler, use it. If the other character doesn't, have him pick something up and use it as an off-hand weapon, like a cloak or a beer stein or somebody's hat (it would be funnier if he grabbed a hat off a bystander). If it's a desperate fight, consider throwing things as distractions. Take a page from one of the manuals and throw the hat in the guy's face and kill him while he can't see. And of course there are no rules against grabbing the other guy's blade with your hands either.

[Allen Johnson]

Thanks all - I had a great meeting with the director today and shes really giving me some free reign on this. I really wanted to make use of the off hand and use some seconds and she really liked that idea. There is actually 2 duels. Guy 1 fights Guy 2 and wins. Guy 3 comes out and defeats Guy 1. The first fight will need to be short. I think that I'll have Guy 1 taunting Guy 2 and not really engage him until he's had enough (ie - HE decided when the fight is over) I might use a cloak with Guy 1 and have him maybe do some sort of matador like taunt of Guy 2. Ending maybe with a quick volte or slip with a lethal armpit stab or something. Only 1 pass once he is actually serious. For the second one Guy 3 needs to be very aggressive- very PO'ed. She wanted some stronger swings and such from this guy so I might give him a sidesword or a really early basket. (we're looking at around 1600 here) Guy 1 will need to be freaked out and Im thinking of giving Guy 2 a buckler and have Guy 1 snatch it off the body of Guy 2 to provide a better defence than his cloak would allow for the stronger attacks. The script dictates that there needs to be body wounds for all the deaths. So thats my inital plan- now I just need to help them find these weapons and gear within their budget- which is pretty tight. They wanted to only spend $300- After explaining the saftey concerns with "swords" under $100 they are going to try and re-evaluate that. Exciting times- still open for any and all suggestions! Since I got the freedom,I really want to get it right and represent the renaissance arts with as much passion as we hold it in.

[Guest]

Have you looked into the Chen practicals? Mine have held up pretty well, and they are fairly affordable as well; CAS Iberia's prices for the rapiers are between 230 and 150 dollars, depending on model, and the practical basket-hilt (which is, unfortunately, not very "early" in its styling) goes for 210 dollars. CAS's prices are quite high, too, so you will propably find them cheaper somewhere else. I don't know of a good, affordable sidesword, though.

[Shane Smith]

I'd introduce a sword and buckler into the mix and chop up the chicken spitters Silver style <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (Just kidding all you rapier guys)...I would introduce a sword and buckler for contrast however.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Agreed, about S&amp;B.

Mr Sword throws the buckler like a Frisbee (TM) at Mr Rapier, grabs the rapier, and hacks into his advesary from stem to stern.

Oh gee...I think that I recall "Rob Roy"...

JH

[Allen Johnson]

I am looking at the Chen blades as a consideration. Would a mortuary sword ever have been in contact with a rapier? I think I recall them being about the same vintage but I cant remember at the moment.

[Casper Bradak]

They name supposedly originated in the mid 17th century, so they could've.

[DavidEvans]

Mortuary sword is the name given to a basket hilted backsword/boardsword frequently used by Horse during the 1640's in Britian so yes. Supposedly the hilt bears an image of the marteryed Charles I but the term does pre-date Charles I's execution

[Allen Johnson]

I wish we had more money to work with but it looks like I'll have to settle on CASI Hanwei stuff. I'll probably be getting 2 of their Mortuary (one rebated for the actual fighting and a sharp for the close ups) and at least one other of their rapiers. Anyone know good retailers that actually inspect their Hawei stuff for lemons before they ship?

[Brian Hunt]

You might want to contact Stewart Feil down in Provo. He knows a Casi dealer who might be able to help you out.

hope that helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS