"Highland" Manuals?

[Jeffrey Hull]

Who said they were deluded? I think the authors knew precisely whom they wanted to impress with their manuals -- folks who were not Highlanders or Gaels, especially when dealing with small-sword.

And yes, for like the third time, I am quite aware of Celtic tradition as oral. Though one must broach the question of how it is that we have Yellow Book of Lecan, the Book of Leinster, and Book of Dun Cow, and illuminated MSs like Kells, yet no one ever seems to think of these as proof of early Celtic tradition of literacy.

On the other hand, the twelve doors-of-the-soul are precisely the kind of early Gaelic evidence for systemised marking of bodily targets in its native swordsmanship of which we should treat, IMHO. I found that stuff intriguing and more or less congruent with ideas in other Euro-cultures: German Bloeszen, Italian segno, and so forth.

Anyway, this has been interesting.

JH

[Chris Thompson]

>What is your citation for the "twelve doors of the soul"?>

D.A. Binchy's translation of the Judgments of Diancecht.

>Secondly, have you ever located a second source for the proverb that Matthewson quotes?>

He doesn't quote it, he paraphrases it- and he doesn't say it's a Gaelic proverb. The original proverb appears in most collections of Scots Gaelic proverbs. When I was reading Mathewson's manual, I noticed that one of his sentences is a paraphrase of the proverb in question. Presumably he heard the proverb from one of the Highland sword masters he studied with in Scotland- he mentions several, including a Campbell and a M'Gregor (probably the Archibald MacGregor who wrote "A Lecture on the Art of Defence").

-Chris Thompson

[Chris Thompson]

>Who said they were deluded? I think the authors knew precisely whom they wanted to impress with their manuals -- folks who were not Highlanders or Gaels, especially when dealing with small-sword.>

Obviously Highlanders were not the audience for these manuals, as most Highlanders at the time were not English-speakers or literate.
You can go to any Borders store and buy a book called "Bokken: Art of the Japanese Sword" by Dave Lowry. Mr Lowry is not Japanese, and his book is not in Japanese, but he is a swordsman of the Yagyu Shinkage style, and his book shows genuine Japanese swordsmanship (though in simplified form).
I see the Highland broadsword manuals in the same light. Remember, though, that a few of these manuals were written by native Highlanders. They wrote in English because most of the market for books was in the English-speaking community. Also, some Gaelic-speakers even today are literate in English but not in Gaelic.

>Though one must broach the question of how it is that we have Yellow Book of Lecan, the Book of Leinster, and Book of Dun Cow, and illuminated MSs like Kells, yet no one ever seems to think of these as proof of early Celtic tradition of literacy>

Certainly there was an early Celtic tradition of literacy, but it was largely restricted to an elite and to certain topics. Traditional skills such as music, dance etc were passed down orally and still are. Gaelic oral tradition was collected by folklorists in the 19th century into such collections as the Dewar Mss and the Popular Tales of the West Highlands. It matches well with what we find in the manuals. For instance, MacGregor mentions wandering swordsmen who would go from town to town challeging each town to provide them with a worthy opponent or pay them off with a fee. There are a number of Gaelic stories that describe this custom in more detail, such as "Domhnull Og n h-Alba." MacGregor and Page mention that Highlanders in single combat would seek to disarm or wound their foes rather than kill them, and again Gaelic oral tradition fully confirms this. The Highland broadsword manuals list seven cuts, and Logan in 1838 mentions that Highland swordplay had seven cuts. A few years ago the Gaelic scholar Dr Michael Newton sent me an account of a duel between two Highland swordsmen which actually states that one of the antagonists was slain by "cut 7." (Sorry, I don't have the original source on this one.)
Details of technique do not appear in the oral tradition, but cultural details do. And these corroborate the surviving manuals, showing that the authors were at least to some extent familiar with Highland culture and sword customs.

-Chris Thompson

[Douglas S]

I am interested in finding out how far back in time we can assign these techniques. How much is the use of a baskethilt going to change the nature of the swordplay, and how far back would that have appeared?

In short, can we use these books find out how people in the Celtic lands would have used swords?

[robrobertson]

How much is the use of a baskethilt going to change the nature of the swordplay, and how far back would that have appeared?
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The basket hilt made it's debut in the 16th century.

Rob

[Allen Johnson]

Just to whoever is interested--- I am in the process of a project where I'll be comparing what we can glean on pre disarming act of 1747 use of the Scottish baskethilt and the use of it as instucted in the British regimental units of the late 18th century. The overall focus of the project is still kinda shifting as I compile research. I'm finding that alot of the foot work on the overall info of this has been done. There just isnt a whole lot of exact "how to" on the subject. I hope to remedy that and hopefully get more people interested in my favorite weapon ever! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[robrobertson]

Allen,

Too bad we weren't able to meet about 20 years ago when I lived out there in your neck of the woods. PM me and I'll be happy to share what info I have that may be of value to you. You might have what I do, or even better, but if we don't compare notes we'll never know.

Rob

[Mike_McGurk]

"I study Scots Gaelic and some of the other Celtic anguages. I wish that the Scottish Gaels had preserved their fencing traditions in their own language. You must understand that few Scottish Gaels were literate and so the reading population was very small. This, unfortunately, is still the case. Also, the elite class, the very people who might use a fencing text, were becoming more anglicized during the 17th and 18th centuries. Additionally, fencing books are a product of the printing press and urban culture neither of which the Scottish Gaels or any of the other Celts possessed."

You're quite right, and perhaps another reason that said manuals are lacking was the British attempt to wipe Celtic languages from existance. An example of their views towards Cymraig follows.
"It must always be the desire of a Government to render its dominions, as far as possible, homogenous . . . Sooner or later, the difference of language between Wales and England will probably be effaced . . . an event which is socially and politically so desirable." - Matthew Arnold
Legally anyone who didn't speak English had no way to defend themself in a court of law since the Tudors ruled England up until more recent times. So it's little wonder why fight-books weren't publish in Gaelic.

[jeremy pace]

I am not near the expert you fellows are on this tradition but it occured to me on a question of the uses of the blade and footwork patterns that we could look towards the other highland mas.... namely boxing. I know they didnt invent the sport (i dont think <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) but no one can deny the irish helped refine it. many of their stances are high and their footwork is rather straightforward and plodding. Could this be because of their familiarity with the broadsword and stances to accomodate it? Its always a challenge trying to interpret a work when we dont have someone instructing us on it, but maybe if we look to what we do have we can get a better understanding. like i said not an expert here, just a thought.

[Allen Johnson]

Its a good idea but I think its working in the wrong direction. Now if you are looking for pugilism then that is fatastic. But as a possible source material for highland broadsword or 'twa' handit' swords I caution against it. I think it might be closer if you started with the earlier English texts that we have, (something like Zach Wylde for broadsword) I think we might have a closer match. Of course there is really no way to tell for sure until a true pre- 1745 Highland Gaelic manual is found. And even then, we all know the chalenges of interpretation even when its in our 1st language.