How zwerchhau?

[Randall Pleasant]

Lane

Many of us have encountered the same problem. You might find the following Video enlightening.

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's

A couple thing's on the zwerch you must move very quickly absolutely no hesitation, i realy throw the blade out and when it hit's it is very solid, getting off line is also very very important.


Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hey,

Maybe this is obvious, but I suggest that the powerful Zwerch is really driven by treading and turning. It is not one of those blows where the arms alone achieve it, the legs and waist need to do their part. It calls for torquing the whole body.

JH

[philippewillaume]

Hello lance

Ringeck tell us that a zorh is one way to break the Zwerch.
In fact as quasi-vertical strike will defeat the zwerch. (The way I take the zhorh has a very small angle from the vertical, which I think is what Randall is calling a high angle but I think we are talking about the same thing.).

I assume that you are doing a Zwerch to counter his attack. And he change the trajectory of his blade and probably duck his head to avoid your blade (and mat be even stepping a bit to his right).

I do not think your swerch is too slow or even that you have the wrong trajectory. I think it has more to do with taking the technique as an individual piece so it can lead to do it when it is not there.

The zwerch is demonstrated as a counter to a relatively downward cut but it works against anything that starts above the head. Trajectory is not that important has long as it starts form above his head. Though obviously the more ex-centred your opponent strikes the more shiel-ish yours will become.
Which I think is good because I firmly believe that you can change maister-haw even when you strike. For me master haw are just a way of finishing an oberhaw.
You start as a normal oberhaw and you finish in the masterhaw you need as opposed to starting into a given master haw. Hence you do not need to worry about what he is going to strike because things will naturally take care of themselves


Ringeck tells us 3 things in his description of the Zwerch.
Der zwerhaw mit sinen stucken.
Zwerch benympt, was von tag her kümpt.
Glosa.
Merck, der zwerhaw bricht alle hew, die von oben nyder gehawen werden. Vnd den haw tryb also: Wen er dir oben jn hawet zu° dem kopf, so spring mit dem rechten fu°ß (27 v )gen jm vß dem hawe vff sin lincken sytten. Vnd im springen verwent din schwert - mit dem gehultz houch vor deinem haupt, das din doum vnnden kome - vnd schlach jn mit der kurtzen schniden zu° siner lincken sytten. So vaschdü sinen haw jn din gehultz vnd triffest jn zu° dem kopff.

The zwerch and its pieces
The zwerch takes (benehmen=vornmehmen) whe he flanges (ie strike) from the roof.
Mark : the Zwerchau braks all strikes that are stiken from the top to bottom. And this stike is done so: when he stike from above to the head, so you jump with the right foot towards him off the stike to his left side. And in the jump (verwinden=winden ausdehnen) extend the winding of the sword- with the hilt (houch=hoch) high in front of your head- that you thumb comes under- and strike him with the short edge at his left side. So you guard against his strike in you quillons and drive at his head.

You move forward and to the right. This is an explosive move (ringeck usually does not tell that we step to a side which emphasises.
We catch the blade in our quillons after a winding action
We strike him with the short edge.

Like that it is easy to see that as big step to our right, wind the strike and eventually catch the blow on the quillons
I think it is a tad more complex that that
Stepping: explosive or not we are told in the generic advices to follow the strike with the foot. Even though the strike and the step will finish at the same time. The strike Ie the hands move first.
So you can change your mind as to where you foot is going to land and how you will finish the move.

Catching his blade
Ain stuck vß dem zwerhaw.
Zwer mit der stoerck: dein arbait do mit moerck.
Glosa.
Das ist, wie dü mit der stoerck auß der zwer arbaiten solt. Vnd dem thu°n also: wen dü jm mit der zwer zu° hauest, so gedenck das dü jm mit der zwer sterck deines schwerts starck in das sin hauest. Helt den er starck wyder so schlach jn am schwert mit gekrutztrn armen, hinder seines schwertz klingen, vff den kopff; (28 r )oder schnyd jn mit dem stuck dürch das maul.

Another piece of the zwerch
Zwerch with the strong: your work mark with that.
That is when you are to work with the strong out of the Zwerch. And you do it like so, when you strike him with the zwerch bear in mind that you are striking strongly with the strong of your sword against his. Hold he strongly against (you) so you strike him at the sword with crossed hands, behind his blade, onto the head or schnit him with this piece across the muzzle/mouth.

So it quite clear that we need to hit is blade as well. But we need to be “jumpinp” outside
Waß sich wol zwercht mit springen, dem haupt geferet.
Glosa.
Das ist, das dü mit ainem yden zwer schlage wol vß solt springen, jm vff die sytten, do dü jm zu° schlagen wylt. so magstü jn wol treffen zu° sienem haupt. Vnd wart, das dü jn dem sprung oben vor dinem haupt mit dienem gehultzen vol bedeck syest.

He who well Zwerch with a leap, the head endanger
Glose
That is that you, with each of your Zwerch, are to jump well out to the sides where you want to stike him. So that you may easily/well hit his head. And watch (warten= zuschauen) that you are well covered from above and in front of your head with quillons during jump.


Do I make sense ?

[Jared L. Cass]

IMO the key to the Zwerch (and all the master strikes) is the advise to keep the arms well extended. Once Bart and Hans and Alex hammered this into my skull, I haven't hardly ever been getting hit while performing this strike. Equally important is getting off line.

I think also that while the "helecopter rotor" analogy is a great way to describe how the strike is done, one must not stick 100% to the idea of it being performed on a perfectly horizontal plane. If the strike from above targets much lower than the shoulder, a fellow can simply make the tip of the sword dip a bit lower in the zwerch. The attack will still be deflected by the zwerch movement and still hit the opponent. The key here is still the extended arms though, IMO. Does that make sense?

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jeffrey Hull]

The arm-extension is an excellent point. Cool.

[Lance Chan]

Thanks everyone for the tips! One of the things I've been experimenting with zwerchau was which angle should I extend my arms to. I was hit during sparring when my arms were extending 45 degree to the front from vertical upward. So later I was taking a look at page 70 of The knightly arts of longsword and found the figure extending his arms very upward. However, when I look at the various videos demonstrating zwerchau, the arms were more or less like mine during the sparring. Plus I mentioned before, the zwerchau shown on the book doesn't seem to prevent me from being hit by a diagonal strike that I had received during the sparring. So I was simply lost.

With your tremendous amount of tips, I understand better which situation I should apply this technique with. Thanks to everybody!

[Jeffrey Hull]

Some guys have given us some insight to this very Zwerch:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/mastercuts.html

Although attacking with Zwerch in "Vor" tends to help you avoid problems of getting hit by a diagonal Oberhau, you can do it alright "In Des" as these guys show, to counter an Oberhau if you void with your body as you counterstrike with Zwerch, aided by your footwork being something of a "leap" to the side as sometimes the German sources tell us, or if you prefer, a great-step. At least I like to think of it like that. JH

[philippewillaume]

Hello Jared
Ringek does not mention extending the arms. I think you compensate the some loss of distance of the strike by the “jump”.

I think the only potential problem is that if you extend your arms you weaken your structure and the zhorn counter to the swerch will work even better.

So as far as extending you arms in the zwerch, I think it is fine to do so in a dynamic environment. I.e. breaking the guard as he takes it or as he strikes. It is much more likely to fail if you are breaking a static guard and you’re opponent has his wits about

philippe

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

Ringek does not mention extending the arms. I think you compensate the some loss of distance of the strike by the “jump”.

When i totaly commit to my zwerch i take a big step offline (i'm 6' so i take a pretty good size step), if i totaly commit to the cut with no hesitation i usualy extend my arm's almost straight and target there head, now when i don't commit and i think about what they are doing i do cross sword's or it result's in a double kill and that is due to my lack of conficdence the cut does work when it is executed with confidence and speed and movement.

IMHO

Jeff

[Randall Pleasant]

Jeff

I am in agreement with Philippe, the arms are not fully extended. In order to protect your head your hilt should also be raised as shown in the image from Goliath that I posted earlier. This is also why it is important to perform this cut with the false edge on the right side. Performing a Zwerchhau with the long edge on the right side does not allow you to properly raise your hilt above you head, thus you do not have the protection the technique is surpose to give you.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Randall

This is also why it is important to perform this cut with the false edge on the right side

I respectfully disagree, i can fully extend my arm's doing a full arm shortedge cut on my right side with no problem keeping the hilt up and tip down, the only place i have trouble doing any short edge cut at full arm's length is on the left side coming under with crossed hand's because of the crossed hand's, on the right side it is simply a twist of the pommel no crossed hand's almost in a hengen looking type pose, so it is not hard to power through the cut from the shoulder and rotate the body with a triangle step for even more follow through and power and I do keep the hilt high, tip a little low and it is so much more powerful than using only the momentum of the sword.

I don't use a thumb grip to do short edge it seem's natural to me to turn the pommel with my left hand and it is not going to telegraph i have also done alot of work with the Meyer short edge drill to the four opening's, i simply loosen my grip a little at the gaurd and turn the pommel with my left hand and push with my right, to me that is very simple, i think because i do a lot of whitewater kayaking and i use a right hand control paddle so i am used to the idea of a fluid grip and aligning the paddle blade to slice into the water and bite it helped me with a fluid grip on the sword i noticed a Lacrosse player in our group does the same thing and they use a fluid grip on there Lacrsse stick's too.

i don't believe that there is only one way to do every technique i think these are the basic technique's and the rule for this one is hand's high, hit with the short edge, step off line, be ready to counter/attack again, and that each person will adapt these to there own body and flexibilty, speed etc.

This is just MO, it seem's to work for me when i totaly commit to it if i half ass it i get eaten alive as will most with any uncommited tecnique, no matter how great the technique.

Jeff <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Randall Pleasant]

Jeff

I should have worded my message better. I see on problem extending your arms as long as your head is protected.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hey Guys:

RP quote:

*In order to protect your head your hilt should also be raised as shown in the image from Goliath that I posted earlier. This is also why it is important to perform this cut with the false edge on the right side.*

This is what I think of as proper extension of arms. But I think I get what JG is talking about as well.

Too bad forums do not allow us to show our techniques in person to one another, as then we could grasp each others meanings more readily

JH

[philippewillaume]

Yes I think we may be expressing it differently but i think we are in agreement.

On true edge false edge, I think that grip wise, I do as Jeff G describe. (cf my first post).
Jeff G. I think that correspond to Meyer definition of the short edge though.

as you said it is not so much a problem to extend your arms (in front) however you need to be aware that it is very dangerous against a static guard.

start at a one step distance (Ie you need to pass forward to hit your opponent.
Let him assume von tag (over the head to mke thing simple)
Strike a swerch as you strike he just nee to strike a Zorn as he pass back he will collapse you zwerch and will be able to thrust you and you will be in major buggered situation to prevent that thrust. (been there done that got the T-shirt)

That is fine the zornh is supposed to break the zwerch like that.
(With training that will even defeat the head covering zwerch, though it is much more difficult, but that is related on how to break the guards more than the zwerch itself)

Philippe