New Article on the Mastercuts

[Mike Cartier]

I too had a little trouble with the short edge Krumphau , being that I am used to the Meyer long edge version. However I think its more easily facilitated with a flip of the blade at the start of the strike to put the short edge down, so that you simply have the throw the sword down over your head without any strain.
When flipped over (either direction, towards me or away from me) it makes the strike feel more natural like the long edge.

One slight problem I have with this essay is i think its a mistake to call right side Vom Tag a Zornhut. Zornhut is much further back, whereas i think the Right side Vom Tag is simply a derivative guard of high / Tag. There is a slight difference in execution for starting a krumphau from Vom Tag or Zornhut at least IMHO

[Shane Smith]

Hi Jeff!
That sounds an awful lot like a shielhau. Can you clarify? Thanks <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

Hi Casper,
We seem to be on the verge of giving rise to the dreaded "krumpy-sheil" <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Kidding aside, I have been working through this and it seems a bit weaker than the true-edge in setting aside a blow due to less than ideal bodily alignment.It also seems awkward to clear the head with the hands from vom tag. I do however,see how the false edge krump could very easily be done from right weschel.

Where did this interpretation come from exactly?Thanks.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane

That sounds an awful lot like a shielhau. Can you clarify? Thanks

From right pflug take a small step back with the left leg, raise the sword up like you are going to kron and krump there blade on your left side and guide it to your right and then step forward with the right leg and come from the right and cut across there arm's or neck as you step into them, it is alot like the Meyer wound strike, and then after the cut your in a good position to imediately thrust.

Does this make sense to anyone beside's me? i hope so.

in the member area there is a video of a counter strike sampler the last counter John does is very similar to what i do.

Jeff

P.S. i love video, lol, thank's John.

[Casper Bradak]

Heh, if you're asking about how I described it, I just made it up. I do think it's slightly weaker than the true edge for a hard bind, but it has different applications, and unless you want to do a movie bind, the strength shouldn't be a big issue. It takes little strength for it to set aside the blow.
I think the speed will come with practice. The true edge is more direct from a standard vom tag, but the false edge whips around quickly and easily once you get it working for you, and it seems to me it strikes harder even though it may not bind as strongly.

[JeanryChandler]

Where is Jake btw? Is he back from Army training yet?

jR

[JeffGentry]

Hey Casper

The true edge is more direct from a standard vom tag, but the false edge whips around quickly and easily once you get it working for you, and it seems to me it strikes harder even though it may not bind as strongly.

That is one reason for using it in a displacement IMO because it doesn't bind as much and it whip's out very quickly with the short edge to displace.

Jeanry

I think Jake will be home for christmas if i am not mistaken, someone correct me if i am mistaken.


Jeff

[Jake_Norwood]

Where is Jake btw? Is he back from Army training yet?

jR

He's not, actually, though by coincidence he is off for Thanksgiving day before returning to slogging it out in the wet and cold fields of Ft. Benning. Jake graduates at the end of January, when he intends on re-entering the ARMA community full-force and with a newly sculpted physique (courtesy of the US Army Infantry School) and an itching to let out some frustration in the form of armed violence (also courtesy the US Army Infantry School).

Really, though, I can't wait to get back into all of this when my "Total Control" training is done and I move on to a more sane training schedule out at the Ft. Huachuca, AZ Military Intelligence School. I've got some stuff I'm dying to try out and I'd love to get back to seminars and teaching as soon as my schedule will allow it.

As for the contents of this thread...I haven't been able to read it all (no time), but my thoughts on long edge/short edge krump really come down to grip and personal preference. Talhoffer is usually credited with showing a short-edge krump, but based on his grip (I always look carefully at grips) it could be either. The grip of the sword is a very liquid thing--you might change from a "thumb" grip to a "hammer" grip to a "perpendicular" grip all unconciously and all within a few short seconds.

I do feel that a long-edge krump (as well as a short-edge zwerchhauw from elsewhere on this board) provide the primary benefits not of excellence in the isolated attack, but in their ability to immediately recover or transform into another attack with little-to-no effort or time. A long-edge krump from the right becomes a blendhauw on the left or a schiller on the left or a short-edge krump on the left very, very quickly--and all of those cuts can instantaneously become thrusts...fighting in this way is much like chess or most other strategy games: you have to think a few moves ahead, because one good attack now isn't worth 4 good attacks over the next 3 seconds. Make sense?

Oh, and I probably won't be able to get back on this board for about a month, so I apologize in advance for not responding to any replies.

Jake

[Matt Bailey]

Where is the textual evidence for a short-edge krumphau from the right? Ringeck doesn't say (he doesn't say alot of things), Danzig calls for the long edge, as well as Meyer.. The only evidence I've heard for the short edge in the matter is Talhoffer's picture, but the caption doesn't specify an edge. Interestingly, if you look at Meyer's illustration of the Krump, the hand position looks alot like Tal's...if I had only the picture to go on, I'd assume the short edge was being used.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Matt

I went and looked up the Meyer text and you are right he does specify long edge, guess i will be more careful to double check thing's when i hear them, glad someone pointed that out.

Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

I prefer to Krummhau long-edged, but I found that the short-edger which some prefer can actually be sort of a deceptive "clipping" with the blade -- however, I am unsure if others think of it like that. JH

[Casper Bradak]

The krumphau done with the long edge from the right is identicle in all but planar alignment and application to the execution of duplieren from the right, in a fashion, which Ringeck does describe.

[philippewillaume]

About tallhoffer
If we are talking about taffel 20


I think he stepping to the left so is it not really what we should call from the left ? (Sutor is doing something like that but tad more circumvallated that that)

I agree with Jake, it is very easy to move you finger on the blade, and if we believe Meyer what make the short-edge depends on how you are holding the sword.

Matt, ringecks say to hit his hands by throwing the point. He does not mention the edge so may be it does not matter that much.

[Shawn Cathcart]

Ringeck doesn't specify what edge to strike with in the krumphau, however, in the krump against a master he does mention this:

If you want to weaken a master, then while he strikes an Oberhau from his right side strike a Krumphau with crossed hands against his sword. When you strike him with the Krumphau against his sword, from the sword immediately strike upwards against his head with the short edge.

So after krumping the masters blade he then strikes with the short edge. I can think of no practical way of striking this particular krump with the short edge, and then also delivering a cut to the head with that same edge. I think it makes sense to assume this krump is done with the long edge.

While I'd agree the krump to the hands could be done with either edge I generally like the position the long edge krump puts me in afterwards. It leaves you in position for short edge cuts and thrusts which result in you getting to uncross your hands which in this scenario, I believe is beneficial.

[GaryGrzybek]

During drills I've have good results in using false edge Krumphau against his blade and then uncrossing my wrists to strike him on the head with the true edge. Of course this may be less desirable for a follow up thrust.

I think either scenario works just fine.