New Article on the Mastercuts

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hey:

I do Ringeck's described technique and find it quite nifty. I think that I saw Mike Cartier doing the same thing in one of the ARMA-FL videos, but instead for something from Meyer. I think that it was the same thing. (?)

JH

[John_Clements]

A quick reminder for members, on this subject keep in mind the important section on the Five Hidden Strikes in the Liechtenauer Study Guide that covers this.

JC

[John_Clements]

Right. This is very easy to do and quite effective as a stop cut or stop thrust even. We discovered it outside the manuals about three years ago and it blew us away. From the same position in fact you can do a long edge version (--which was in turn the source of a lot of confusion over which way several historical sources were meaning for it to be). The arm poistions differ too in this, depending upon whether you strike let or right and whether you pass forward or back. When it comes to a short edge diagonal rising cut however, there are two different wasy to do it depending upon whether you start it in a high or low stance. This creates more confusion.

We'll have to add a vid clip of the Mesterhau striking practice sometime soon, maybe also of our 16-cut exercise.

JC

[John_Clements]

A long-edge krump from the right becomes a blendhauw on the left or a schiller on the left or a short-edge krump on the left very, very quickly--and all of those cuts can instantaneously become thrusts..

Yes, exactly.
The descending Zorn and rising short Krump cuts have a contrary relationship on the same line of attack, while the descending diagonal Scheil and long edge Krump cuts have the same correlation. Either combination may instantly be followed a quick Zwerch, while reversing or following through one of these cuts can then permit a quick Scheitel or vertical Scheil. The whole time the hilt is defensively in front and the action for all this is rapid, fluid, and ferocious, just as Master Liechtenauer described.

p.s.
great talking with you finally over the holiday, Jake

[philippewillaume]

not in reply to jonh ceomment (just happen to be the last post in here). you can find a long winded explanation on waht i think teh krump looks like (should you be that sad or simply currious <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=44406

[Scott Anderson]

I may be misreading your drawings due to their ambiguity as effectivly stick figures but what I'm seeing in them looks far more like a Schielhau rather than a Krumphau to me.

SPA

[claus drexler]

Hi everybody,

good work the "mastercuts"-article!

Nevertheless something to mention:

- The Krumphau is not described as a short edge cut.
Danzig is very explicitely on that point, he advises to use the long edge.
Ringeck does not specify which edge to use.
Just Joachim Meyer (in late 1570 !) depicted the short edge once. (His text also does not elaborate on which edge to use).
IMO very little evidence for a Krumphau with the short edge to create a principle with this article!?

What is your reference for the short edge? Which manuscript is your your interpretation based on?

- The Krumphau (the mastercut!) ist not described as an Unterhau.
The earliest known text about Liechtenauers teachings (Hs.3227a) is very explicitely stating that the Krumphau is an Oberhau.
(IMO the Krumphau is "just" a variation of the Zornhau.)

- The Schrankhut is not always the final position of a Krumphau. This is just an option, when hitting the blade with the Krumphau and if nothing "better" = quicker succeeded.
For other follow-ups like a short edge or long edge cut or a thrust the Schrankhut is overdone a position.

Just my two cents,
best,
Claus

"Ochs-historische Kampfkünste e.V."
HEMAC-Member

[Mike Cartier]

Just Joachim Meyer (in late 1570 !) depicted the short edge once. (His text also does not elaborate on which edge to use).

From what I have read of Meyer he is quite explicit that the Krumphau be done with the long edge.

Meyer says:


This strike is described thus: stand in the Wrath Guard with your left foot forward, when your opponent strikes, step with your right foot fully away from his strike and against his left side, strike with the long edge and crossed hands against his strike, or between his pommel and blade, diagonally over his hands, and fully overshoot his arms to lay on the blade, as shown in illustration D by the figures on the upper right hand side.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike

this is just something i noticed after reading this and looking at the pic's in Meyer.

Just Joachim Meyer (in late 1570 !) depicted the short edge once.

there are a couple illistration's that do show what "appear's" to be a krump witht the short edge illistration c l. back ground, illistration D r back ground, these illistration's though if that is the refrence are with out context if you only look at the illistration i did not go any further to look for more, didn't seem worth the time, i do agree with you Mike it is right there in the text, just thought i would point out the depiction.

Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

One interesting point however is that in the description of the Kurtzhau Meyer says to strike like you would Krumphau, "that is to bind his sword with your half edge" which would seem to indicate a short edge Krumphau, although I think the primary Krumphau would be long edge, its not unfathomable that Meyer would also use a short /half edge Krumphau.

The only thing that could spoil this theory would be if half edge does not mean short edge like we think, but rather describes an area of the blade on either short or long edge. This is reaching but something to consider.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Jeff,

I am just reading Meyer now (for the past 3 hours. Rubs head pulls hair <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ). Illustration C (the 2 background woodcuts) are part of a 3 image sequence on page 37. Essentially we move from C (left rear) to C (right rear) to D (second group back in the middle). Read the text and tell me if that sounds like a krump.

The other one that could be a short edge krump is woodcut #F (the second group straight back in the middle described on page 34. This one is described sort of like a short edge krumping wrench from the bind as one part of the sequence.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Guys,

interesting discussion, but I think there is too much worry here about which edge to use. It is really easy to over intellectualize this art because of the study that is involved to bring it back from the dead. I think both a long edge and a short edge krump are valid. I think krump is more about it being a "crooked" strike, than which edge you use. I use either-or, depending. If I am striking at his hands to break the guard of Ochs, I use a long edge krump from vom tag, either above my head or at my right shoulder; If I want to bind his blade then strike at his head, I prefer a short edge krump followed with a true edge strike to his head by uncrossing my hands high on my left side which keeps that line closed. They are both Krumps because of the motion/arc that the blade follows, not because of which edge I use. If I am in a schrankhut on my left side with my true edge towards him, it is logical to uncross my wrist to do a true edge krump towards his left, but at the same time I can do a false edge krump to the top of his head from here. If I am in a "changer" guard that has my false edge towards my opponent and I want to krump from there, it will be a short edge krump to either side. If I am doing a series of krumps (krump, krump, krump,etc.) I will change between a long edge and a short edge krump as I move from krump to krump, crossing and uncrossing my hands. For reference sake, all of the movements that I am doing here would be an oberhau type cut, not an unterhau. I think that we sometime try to make things more complicated than they are. Most good fighting systems follow the KISS principal (keep it simple stupid). If you try to overthink it, it will get you killed in a fight. It is good to know which edge to use in a particular situation described by the old masters, such as from here krump with your long edge, and in that same situation if it is specified, then that is the way I would do it, but otherwise just attack his openings or bind his blade. That is what the krump is really good at because of its motion or path. I don't intend to sweat this one, just strike as I need to strike.

just some thoughts.

Brian Hunt.
GFS.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron dis regard the text the pic look's like a krump and he said it was shown i assumed a pic, lol, a pic could look like just about any strike we expecrt it too, was my point.

Jeff

[JeffGentry]

Hey Brian

but I think there is too much worry here about which edge to use. It is really easy to over intellectualize this art because of the study that is involved to bring it back from the dead. I think both a long edge and a short edge krump are valid.

I said something similar in the thread awhile back i don't think it realy matter's what edge you use unless it is specified in a certain setplay, so i am in agreement with you i also use both edge's depending on what gaurd i'm in, it will dictate long or short to some extent.

Jeff

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Jeff,

in a thread this long and convoluted it is easy to forget that someone may have already made the same point. Since we are in agreement here, and you were first . . .

Sorry for being redundent, Sorry for being redundent, Sorry for being redundent. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cheers.

Brian Hunt
GFS.