Training with heavy materials for strength?

[TimSheetz]

Brian,

To answer your question: Only occaisionally.


For everyone:

Seriously, the repetions I stated are in the HIGH category. If you aren't in decent conditions better keep the count down so you don't hurt yourself.

ALSO *** this is VERY IMPORTANT***** do these AFTER you have drilled, sparred, and done all your finesse training... cause afterwards, you will have a notable LOSS of CONTROL in your weapon handling.
<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you also are with a group that grapples, I can't say enough good things about the conditioning THAT gives YOU.

Have a nice workout,

Tim

[JeffGentry]

hey all
Yea our group is doing more grappling and dagger play and it is a butt kicker all the quick movement and the resistance, such as grabbing and pulling and such.

Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

here is a Ancient source on strength and fitness training by
Galen, one of the fathers of greek medicine and a Doctor to Roman Gladiators.
http://historical-pankration.com/galen.html
we someitmes like to grapple to throw, without actually tossing the guy, or just fighting for grip like underhooks or to get to someones back is a great workout.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike
Yea Galen was pretty revolutionary in his time from my understanding he did some pretty amazing stuff medicaly from what i understand didn't know he had fitness stuff out there though.

Jeff

[Douglas S]

Sorry folks, I am very late to this thread, please accept my apologies.

I am a certified personal trainer and I'm currently writing a book dealing with this subject.

First of all, most of the posts have been generally helpful. I would, however, red flag the clapping exercise mentioned. This can seriously stress the shoulder over time; can you say impingement injury?

The doubleweight training mentioned in Vegetius and in the Poem of the Pell is well supported in modern sports science, but now it's called bracket training.

The way I do this for longsword, is to start with about ten good fendentes from posta di donna with a waster. Then I pick up a wrecking bar I have, and yes it's more than double weight. I start with a slow fendente, stopping it before it hits the ground. This trains the muscles that I use in braking the motion. People can usually swing a sword faster than they can stop it, since a fast sword develops a lot of momentum.

Then I take the wrecking bar and assume posta di donna. I find a nice stump or something disposable near waist height to whack, and to train the muscles that accelerate the sword, I whack the stump as hard as I can, without concerning myself with braking. The impact causes a lot of vibration in my left hand, so I usually release it just before impact. It's the acceleration at the top of the swing that I'm training for here.

This is pretty strenuous, and if you are not strong, this may not be good to hit right away. For beginner sword-persons <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would suggest strengthening the muscles of the back first. The fast movement of a sword can cause a lot of torque and repeated trauma to the shoulder. In rehabilitation of injuries, physical therapists have a set of exercises. Use these as "pre-hab" that is strengthening certain muscles to avoid the injury in the first place. A couple of good ones can be done with a waster grasped at the opposite end.

For the first one, stand and hold the waster out horizontal and straight out at your side. Now, bring the waster in until its halfway to being directly in front of you, abou 45 degrees. Now turn your hand so your thumb is down and your pinky up. That't your starting position. Slowly raise your waster up and down, from 5-12 times. Switch to the other hand. This movement is called "empty can".

You can also train your external rotator cuff muscle by holding your waster horizontal at your side and bending your arm at the elbow about 90 degrees so the waster is pointing forward. Now lower and raise your waster until you get to 5-12 reps and switch hands.

There are also some really great forearm exercises if you're interested.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Douglas, good stuff man, I would be interested in the forearm stuff, I just picked up on of these gyro forearm balls on a handle, the force builds and builds making you rotate your wrist faster, what do you think of these gizmos?

[TimSheetz]

HI Douglas,

Thanks for the input. Let us know when your book is out.

I think that it is common sense that the overhead clap exercise could cause you problems if overdone. I also think that doing it with extra weight is a bad idea.

In the past, I have had my shoulders and back bothered more by lifting light weights and doing shoulder exercises. Not so with this one.

Could the results of the studies on certain exercsies be affected by the population from which they come? I just have not seen very many injuries to shoulders that were not do to trauma (as opposed to overuse). This just comes from my narrow experience being in the US Army for 14 years; I don't have experience with a larger grouping of civilian surveyed people.

This is fitness related so I think it is on topic.. but if we stray I'd like to continue via email.

Thanks,

Tim Sheetz

[Tim Merritt]

I offer only a caution--start slow. Two months ago I decided to "up" my practice, and took to the pell like an aerobic activity, no heavy materials. Shoulders were sore, but the weather was bad (and shark warnings) for the usual activities, so I continued the next few days. Now, I can hardly LIFT my arms without pain that's getting worse, let alone do any sort of sword work, surfing, construction... I doctor's visit is in my near future. Be carefull, injury sucks.

[Douglas S]

Thanks for the positive reponse. It's very common for young people to notice no bad effect from various training modalities, then later on, in their middle age, start noticing serious joint problems.

As far as wrist training for swordplay, I usually grab a heavy iron bar, and go for a couple different exercises. The force on your muscles depends on how much you "choke up" on the bar.

1) With the bar in your hand, keep your forearm horizontal and turn your hand so your palm is up (supinated). Now turn your wrist until the bar is about vertical, then back down again. Do several of these, then switch to the next one.
2) With the bar in your hand, keep your forearm horizontal and turn your hand so your palm is down (pronated). Now turn your wrist until the bar is about vertical, then back down again. Do several of these. You can alternate between these for two or three sets, or when you get tired of it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

3) With the bar in your hand (like a sword), hold your forearm vertical and make the tip of the bar rise and fall. This is called "radial deviation".

4) Now hold the bar in the opposisite or "ice-pick" grip. Make the bar rise and fall again. We call this "ulnar deviation".

Do this at the end of your sword and weight training, because you shouldn't be able to do much else!

[Douglas S]

Actually, in retrospect, the trouble with the forceful overhead clap is only when it is strongly overhead. If you incline your clapping hands slighlty to the front (instead of directly overhead) you should be ok.

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi Tim,

I've been studying for personal trainer certification for several weeks now and one thing I've learned is that improper form is what causes most injuries, not the weights. My PT director constantly emphasizes proper range of motion and core alignment in order to avoid injury to the joints. Lately, as I watch what goes on in the weight room it's clear to see how many people do resistance training incorrectly. The young buff's will get away with it for a while but eventually it will sneak up on them. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[TimSheetz]

Hi Doug,

I agree - It should not be a strong forceful clap. Heck, I just get my hads to touch lightly... and now that I tried it paying attention, I can see my hands meet above my head but more in line with my forehead.

As to what Gary G was saying.... Proper range of motion is important... but I have given up on "weight lifting (not like I did much of it anyway). I had two friends that kneeled at the alter of iron (weightlifted) very frequently. They were very big, and very strong and both needed shoulder surgery for the same thing.

No weights for me, my joints sesem to hurt after when I do it. Calisthenics and body weight resistance seem to work better for me. The only weghts I use are training weapons, or very, ver light ones to use for combative exercises, or the weight vest to replicate wearing armor (So I can work out without having to sweat on my armor). I am very interesed in core fitness.

Peace,

Tim

[Douglas S]

Exactly. One thing I notice in studying Fiore is that the illustrates figures generally seem to have an erect posture with their shoulders back. This actually enhances the shoulders' mechanical efficiency.

So, Gary, which cert are you working on?

[GaryGrzybek]

I'm working towards Personal Fitness Trainer with ACE. Hopefully I'll be ready for the exam by February <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

So, it seems even the Masters focused heavily on core stabilization and muscle mechanics or body mechanics as we call it.

[David Kite]

On the shoulder clapping, do you perform this as fast as you can to develop explosive power, or do you take your time, presumably to avoid injury?

And this is sort of on topic: Does anyone know of any excercises to strengthen the knee joints?

David Kite
ARMA in IN