Telegraphing and footwork

[Guest]

One of my major problems lies in telegraphing. I seem to give my intentions away quite often. Any insights weould be very appreicated.
Thanks,

B.

[John_Clements]

Yeah, practice to be non telegraphic --that is, practice to make simple quick smooth movements by repetition of basic techniques. View yourself in a mirror or on video.

JC

[Jake_Norwood]

Paying attention to what moves first--like in G. Silver's "True or perfect time" has really helped me. Move the weapon, then the hand, then the arm, then the body, then the leg, then the foot. If you do it the other way around, your strike will be obvious.

[John_Clements]

Much as I loathe to sound like I disagree with Silver, what he says makes sense for thrusts (and especially for rapiers), the longsword manuals state logically to move the foot first in passing attacks then the weapon.

[Jake_Norwood]

I'm not questioning what you're saying--from a body-mechanic angle I can easily see the sense in it, but do you have a reference for "the longsword manuals state logically to move the foot first in passing attacks then the weapon"? I'd love to have it (so I could quote it, of course).

And, if that's the case, how do you prevent the telegraph that a foot-moving-first provides?

[TimSheetz]

Hi,

I think telegraphing has less to do with whether your foot moves first or not, than other signs you show that tell what you are doing...

Like if you are a "bouncy" guy.. do you bounce a certain way right before moving explosively? or maybe get a certain body position the same way every time...

If my foot moves before the weapon, all you get to know is that I am moving.. not where I am stepping or whether I am passing greatly or a little, or obliquely, or a false pass to get you to react... and as my foot is moving you have no way of knowing where the blade is going.. especially if swinging from the shoulder. Even from tail guard there is about 250 degrees of approach my blade could have.

I guess the point of my rambling is that the "foot first, weapon first" doesn't matter as much for telegraphing than other co-incidental 'Tells' that indicate our actions prematurely.

The guidance from the masters on foot and weapon movement is a guide for general foundational principles, but circumstances can readily change that based on our specific circumstances.

That's my two cents!

[Guest]

I assume you're talking londsword here? I think a lot of us have this problem. Especially when you spar with the same partner(s) every week, they learn to read you. I can hardly land a good blow on the guys in my study group any more, they know all my tricks. All I can suggest is to try to be as deceptive as possible. Feint high and go low, thrust out quickly from pflug with a passing step and no warning, feint right and cut around to the left, etc. Attacking from the tail gaurd or nebenhut can be very deceptive. With your blade behind you, it's hard to tell what line you will cut on, you can cut oberhau, mietelhau or unterhau, all from the same position. Also, in tail gaurd, you can often sneak in a little closer in range before your oppopnent realizes it and launch an attack.

Hope this helps.

[Randall Pleasant]

"...how do you prevent the telegraph that a foot-moving-first provides?"

First, I am old and slow - so my whole body telegraphs! <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> However, I find that during a passing step I have an instance where I can decide if I want to stay with my original target/strike or if I want to change to some other target/strkie. Since I don't have either speed or power my only option is to stick with the countering techniques as defined by the masters and as taught by John Clements.

[Shawn Cathcart]

John's comment made reference not to whether foot-first was less telegraphic simply that it made more sense for swinging a longsword, and it makes sense. Silver dealt a lot with the thrust, or at least discussed it alot in comparison to the more cut and thrust style that he preferred over Rapier. With a thrust, the hand/arm/body/feet scenario works. Why? Because the tip is the more important part of the weapon, especially with Rapier. Extend your hand, and thus your tip and follow it in, push it in with your body. The sooner the tip can hit a target, catch hold, the sooner the following body motion can drive it home. Another part of this is the distance. It is safer with thrusting weapons to stay in close, or within range. You can make short and quick stabbing actions at your opponent, starting with the hand obviously, and still use your hand or dagger or buckler to deflect incoming thrusts simultaneously. You have no such luxury with a cutting edged weapon, Longsword specifically.

With a cutting style weapon this dynamic is different. You can't do a strong shoulder cut with intent and then follow it after with a step, the balance doesn't work. In fact, this is the problem with most beginners. They are doing multiple cuts and swinging their sword and arms, faster than their footwork can keep up, and thus they get way off balance, and degenerate into sloppy cuts.

Now as far as telegraphing goes, I find speed is a very key part of swordplay. It can only be attained by a LOT of cutting and moving practice to build strength in your legs and arms. If you can explode into a strong cut, it doesn't matter as much if you telegraph it a little. The faster your cut, the less time he has to react. It does him no good to see where your cut is going if he can't react fast enough to it, or if he has to scramble to counter or defend himself. At the very least now you've got him off-balance and you can keep pressing your attack and within 3-4 actions max. usually, if he doesn't take back the initiative, something will get through. Also change the line of your attacks as well, and be careful of your distance. If you are further out, coming in with a big cut and he see's it, you will also have more time to see that he's guessed your line of attack, and change it on him. If your too close, he can counter you before you can change your line of attack.

[Guest]

Shawn, very good point about develping speed through practice, and you're right, it's usually the feet that can't keep up.

[Shane Smith]

Tim,I think your assessment is right on the money.Fighters get in the habit of subconciously(or absent-mindedly)moving their bodies in particular ways before an attack in order to "set it up".A skilled fighter will pick up on these little hints and make you pay eventually...Thats why we always hear guys saying "it's easy to land the (fill in the blank) technique the FIRST time" against an unfamiliar opponent.After he's seen your attacking progression once , your preparatory actions will be duly noted and countered the next time.

[TimSheetz]

Shane, That's why I always get excited about having some "new targets" to spar with. It adds a much higher level of uncertainty that helps test the principles you use.

Tim

[Shawn Cathcart]

Tim's comment was very much true. But I've always wondered if this is kind of a modern luxury. I think that there are tell-tale signs that most fighters have in common as far as setting up for an attack, or telegraphing it. And its true, they usually only work once or twice before someone catches on. But back in the day, you would only need it to work once. The guy's being dead would kind of preclude his ability to remember your technique and be ready for it "next time". That's why I think more general observations are more practical. For example, people will often react with a certain cut if you press them unexpectedly as they move into a guard. High guard is perfect. If you catch someone shifting into Vom Tag, instantly rush them. 80% of peoples knee-jerk reflex is to give you a predictable downward-diagnal cut. In this way you're pressing him, and knowing where his blow is going to fall and then you can mess him up seven ways to Sunday. Of course there is the other 20% that will keep their calm and react differently, but I think this falls into the masters attitude that if you are faint of heart, don't learn the arts of defense. If you can't boldly rush into an attack, even knowing that any possible attack no matter how well done could be countered somehow, if you can't commit to that risk, don't pick up the sword in the first place.

[TimSheetz]

HI Shawn,

It may not be a modern luxury as much as a luxury of folks who train with each other often.

I think you are right about it needing it to work once 'back in the day'... I remember a quote being mentioned on the forum about a Master (16th Century I beleive) stating that if you want your students to be killed, then keep training and practicing in public... so their movements may be studied by opponents.

Tim

[Shawn Cathcart]

That's true enough. I didn't think it would be very often that you'd get the luxury of seeing an opponent fight before you fought him yourself. I think it makes a difference if we're talking about group battles, or smaller dueling and city fighting scenarios. In group battles you'd have no idea until you ran against someone who it is you were fighting, and your chances of recognizing them and remembering their quirks would be unlikely. But in the latter scenario it could be quite likely that you might know who your fighting, and even if you hadn't fought him yourself, you may have seen him fight, or heard through someone else that he favors a certain technique. I still think it would be the exception to the rule however.

Heh I think that's a good point as well about the training in public. There would be a lot of competition and rivalry. Do enough to showcase your skill in public, but not so much that others can pick out weakness', would be difficult to manage both I'm sure.

I also enjoy as often as possible, finding new people to spar with. You don't know what you can get away with. Its a very different measure of skill of how quickly you can adapt and commit to attacks.