Thought's on WMA training

[JeffGentry]

Hello everyone

I was in the member's area of our little site and was reading the interview with John, part VI to be exact, he was talking about the dedicated people who are say Japanese Budo master's or the military special force hand to hand instructor's and the UFC guy's who are incredible athlete's, and Martial artist.

why does it seem we don't realy see that in most of what we do, we have some very good warrior's nothing on the level of some of the above though, why?

I think this is a good subject for some serious conversation.


Jeff

[KatherineJohnson]

If I am following the question right, my guess is because WMA is still in it's infancy by far, most of the world doesnt even know WMA's exist.

As such we also might not be attracting some of the "martial" crowd. I often feel as though most of the people who express interest in "that sword stuff" I do are more interested in the idea of LARP fighting then a martial arts class.
Of course,They soon realize it's not for them and leave, and in the mean time I am strugging to get people who are more martial interested in what we do.

WMA is in between a rock and a hard place in a lot of ways. Being that we're western martial artists/scholars the SCA/LARP/Renn Faire crowd are initially attracted to our subject matter, but realize that we're not what they expected.

But being based on European Martial arts, the martial arts crowd automatically assumes we're roleplay stuff, making it diffacult to get people who are serious in a lot of ways.

It also follows with less people practicing what we do we dont have quite as large of a talent pool to draw from, and the people we do have practicing have generally only been practicing a few years at most and havent had time to develop as martial artists to their full potential.

I think we're on the right track, but it will take a while for us to become as good as we can be.

[Casper Bradak]

We're getting there. Hopefully some others are too.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Katherine

If I am following the question right, my guess is because WMA is still in it's infancy by far, most of the world doesnt even know WMA's exist.

So are we not promoting the validity of WMA/HEMA in away to show people we are here, and doing amazing and valid work?

As such we also might not be attracting some of the "martial" crowd. I often feel as though most of the people who express interest in "that sword stuff" I do are more interested in the idea of LARP fighting then a martial arts class.

I know that feeling and i dislike it alot, how do we go about attrcting a more Martial crowd, i am fairly hard core, and as of late i have found out how much i do not know(ie my sense of feeling is not there, so when i cross sword's i am most often trying to pull back and cut, very little winding through to dre wunder or grapple) and it seem's most want to learn the fancy technique's with the sword, well that to me is pointless if in the bind i cannot wind or grapple and i need fuhlen in order to be able to wind in the bind the press drill is boring to most, to me it is a vital part of training as is striking a punching bag to build strength in a strike.

But being based on European Martial arts, the martial arts crowd automatically assumes we're roleplay stuff, making it diffacult to get people who are serious in a lot of ways.

I have been discussing this with one of the guy's at work who is into the UFC/MMA type of thing(he has fought in a few local match's)and he is in excellent shape, he is showing alot of interest, and is wanting to come out to our meeting, i printed out part of the Petter wrestling manuel and he was amazed at the technique's that he use's are almost the same.

It also follows with less people practicing what we do we dont have quite as large of a talent pool to draw from, and the people we do have practicing have generally only been practicing a few years at most and havent had time to develop as martial artists to their full potential.

We do have some very talented people in ARMA, and from what i hear from other group's, in the community in general, could it be that we are spending so much time with those who are in this from the LARP, Renn faire, community and lack the proper "intent" only to have them lose interest that we lose our good talent pool also, because of the lack of serious training time, there was a recent thread about training schedule's for our group here in columbus, this is part of a reply from David Kite and it is my total sentiment.

"if someone doesn't have the drive to practice and learn or the patience, you're not going to be able to give that to them. Just don't waste too much time with them."

i have made offer's to meet as much as possible, i work second shift and that is a difficult schedule i am home when other's work and vice versa, although if i need to get up at 6:00am to train with someone so be it 6:00am it is, gymnast, swimmer's and other athlete's do it all the time, if it is what is necessary to acheive there goal, this is what i am not seeing.

We're getting there. Hopefully some others are too.

yes we are i totaly agree Casper, Maybe i am just impatient, reading John's article just struck a loud cord with me, it is my sentiment also, i am anxious to have John here in April to beat the crap out of me and see what else i do not know and need to work on, the more we sweat in peace the less we bleed in war.


Jeff

[Ryan Ricks]

and then you have people like me, who are traditionally more bookish, with no previous martial arts experience. so it will be awhile before i'm a proficient martial artist, but i'm learning new things constantly.

ryan

[KatherineJohnson]

Ahoy Jeff,

So are we not promoting the validity of WMA/HEMA in away to show people we are here, and doing amazing and valid work?

Certainly we are, and I think we've made a lot of people into believers. No doubt about that, and I'm sure over time we will make many more. Part of that is why I am so glad to be in a group like the ARMA. I feel like we're doing something big in rediscovering these arts. It's much more exciting then just following Grandmaster So-and-So's orders, and I sincerely think our approach is much more martial then 99% of the "martial" arts schools out there.

I know that feeling and i dislike it alot, how do we go about attrcting a more Martial crowd

I think it will come in time, I generally bring up what I "do" with people at my other martial activities to see if anyone is interested and see if it leads to anywhere.

I am also into the "UFC/MMA" thing you mentioned aswell <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />. With the interest of competeing at some point, and one of my intentions to help promote the validity of what we're doing here is that I make a large part of my "stand-up game" the ringen techniques we study in the manuals.

We do have some very talented people in ARMA, and from what i hear from other group's, in the community in general, could it be that we are spending so much time with those who are in this from the LARP, Renn faire, community and lack the proper "intent" only to have them lose interest that we lose our good talent pool also

This makes sense, and I think that there might be a small factor of that (that of course varies from study group to study group). As such, I think we should endeavor to keep our training as martial as we can make it and address the subject with the seriousness it deserves.

I remember one of the first things that opened my eyes to the "martial" aspect of what we do and what made ARMA differant from the karate class I spent years pursuing; I was doing some light waster freeplay with Jake during maybe my second week out and we came into ringen am schwert as I had seized his point and he mine. A couple seconds later he blasted me in the stomach with a fairly stout stomp kick that knocked the wind out of me, made me lose both swords, and put me on the ground.

That's when I, as a martial artist, knew for sure that ARMA was for me. So now that I am leading the study group I try and bring the same intensity to free play that Jake did. Not hurting people, but making sure that they understand that we're serious and not playing "sword tag".

I think if we all bring this intensity to our training, and especially our freeplay, other martial artists will take notice and say "Those ARMA guys are the real deal." In my mind that's precisely the kind of "advertising" we want.

[JeffGentry]

hey all

I am just a real advocate of realistic trianing, and think that the only way to get it is to throw and push and shove as much as possible and to have Fechtmeister's, i understand why we see them in the art work so much at any point they could stop the action and critque you like any good coach, and now day's we have the advantage of video tape and such to help in the learning process.

Jeff

[Jeff Hansen]

The people mentioned in the initial post all have something in common that we lack: MONEY. They get paid to train every day, all day. Either by training others, or in the case of the UFC guys by putting on a show. find a way for me to make money doing this stuff full time and I'll get REAL good, REAL fast. Even JC who is probably as close to a modern professional swordsman as you can come, doesn't get to train all day, everyday. He writes, not fights, for a living. Unfortunately, life gets in the way of training, as much as I know I, at least, would like like it not to.

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

Jeff (Gentry),

We do have similar people. Numerous classical fencing maestros and several teachers of the earlier systems, for example, do teach and practise this for a living - really, in a way rather compareble to the budo masters you mentioned in your post.

Besides, HEMA is still a relatively growing field of study. Most of the current practioners haven't been in the scene for very long and thus haven't yet had much time to practise the arts. You don't become a "budo master" in a year or two, and that certainly won't happen in an art that is still being rediscovered.

Rabbe

[JeffGentry]

hey Rabbe

We do have similar people. Numerous classical fencing maestros and several teachers of the earlier systems, for example, do teach and practise this for a living - really, in a way rather compareble to the budo masters you mentioned in your post.

I am talking disarm's, wrestling, dagger and all, and fitness is a big part of this i think we need to be strong, fast, and have good endurance, not just realy good with a foil, what i am talking about is an all around fencer/Martial artist.

Jeff H.

The people mentioned in the initial post all have something in common that we lack: MONEY. They get paid to train every day, all day

well not everyone who excel's in what they do started out getting paid to do it, most had regular job's and eevtualy got to a point where there job got in the way of there training, i have seen many article's about rock climber's who worked construction for a few month's then quit and went on a climbing spree for a few month's, until they were out of money, after a few year's they started making a living teaching rock and mountain climbing.

i would love to have a training partner who is willing to get together 4 or 5 time's a week for a couple hour's, there are so many subtle thing's to this art that i feel can only be learned by working with someone else, the solo drill's are great they can only take you so far though, and i do not personaly know anyone willing to put that much time into this, i am only wondering why?

this is not meant to be derogatory toward's anyone it is only a topic of discussion, and MO, maybe i just take thing's to seriously.


Jeff

[David_Knight]

I agree that the problem is largely a monetary one. Unfortunately, our society tends to perceive things that are free to be less legitimate than things that cost money.

To the public eye, a group of guys in mismatched red &amp; black clothing training at the local park are "hobbyists", probably just friends with a common interest and nowhere else to go; at any rate, they can't possibly be "good enough" to charge for their classes, or they would.

On the other hand, a group of guys in matching red &amp; black clothing training in a studio is a veritable "martial arts academy", no questions asked. After all, they wouldn't spend money for something illegitimate, would they?

I am not taking issue with the structure of our organization; the informal study groups are crucial in drawing attention to our art. But in recent months I have begun to question just what kind of attention we are getting. In South Florida, we have no banners, no signs identifying us as an ARMA group, no perfectly matching uniforms, no discernible rank structure–none of the visual clues that the general public expects from a "legit" martial arts organization.

At least in South Florida, we seem to be more a curiosity than something to be taken seriously. To my knowledge, we have never met a new member at the park; newcomers always contact us via the internet, and the only people who come up to us to find out what we're doing are little kids. Most of the adults who see us training probably dismiss us as Renn Fair, SCA, or Adrian Empire types; what's worse, without the key words "martial arts", a Google search for "park" and "swordfighting" brings them closer to the LARP community than to the ARMA website.

But what is the solution? We obviously lack the means to rent studios and open up training centers nationwide. Therefore, we must find other ways to impress upon others our focus, group identity, and martial intent before they physically approach us. I have given this a lot of thought and conclude that the answer lies in the visual aspects of our training system. While it is crucial that we avoid mimicking the Asian systems, I feel that we should make a concerted effort to find those EMA conventions that have historical equivalents in the WMA world and create a strong visual identity. A few ideas:

• The illustrations in many fechtbucher visually distinguish between the "master" and "student" for purposes of readability (different clothes, beards, whatever); surely we can adapt this concept to our study groups and find ways for onlookers to clearly identify the senior members, beginners, etc?
• Should we not divide large groups into senior and beginner students instead of focusing all of our efforts on newcomers by either dumbing-down our lessons or thrusting them into complicated longsword drills?
• Over the past 2,000 years, the European military tradition has developed a way to stand in groups; shouldn't we strive to show our Western martial intent and discipline by standing in some semblance of a properly covered and aligned formation instead of milling about in the dreaded "gaggle"? A Renn Fair troupe would never do that.
• When the Study Group leader commands us to assume, for ex., Right Ochs, don't you think we would impress the hell out of everyone around us if we all snapped into the guard in unison while shouting out "Right Ochs!" or "Yes, General Free Scholar!"? The concept of showing respect to someone more experienced than you is not exclusive to EMA, and repeating the names of techniques aloud is also a proven way to help commit each term to memory.
• Shouldn't we focus on projecting visual symbols of ARMA as a distinct group by creating banners or signs with the ARMA logo and the words "Association for Renaissance Martial Arts" clearly visible to all passers-by? The 3" black ARMA logo on each red Study Group t-shirt just doesn't cut it from a distance beyond striking range. A 3x5 foot ARMA flag, "Association for Renaissance Martial Arts" in large white block text across the back of each shirt, a wooden ARMA crest hung on a nearby tree, or a combo of all three would do nicely.

These are all conventions similar to the protocol in Asian schools, but not identical to them, just like some of our guards and strikes are similar to those of Asian systems, but still uniquely Western. In fact, they are based more on my military experience than on my EMA background, and I assure you that the US Army doesn't pattern it's drill standards after the East!

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

Jeff,

Quite so. However, all of the skills (i.e. disarms) you mentioned can be found in the historical texts, as you likely know. Several classical maestros that I know of work on the earlier stuff as well.´

We have people who are accomplished practioners of some of the unarmed arts as well...

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

At least in South Florida, we seem to be more a curiosity than something to be taken seriously. To my knowledge, we have never met a new member at the park; newcomers always contact us via the internet, and the only people who come up to us to find out what we're doing are little kids. Most of the adults who see us training probably dismiss us as Renn Fair, SCA, or Adrian Empire types; what's worse, without the key words "martial arts", a Google search for "park" and "swordfighting" brings them closer to the LARP community than to the ARMA website.

that has been pretty much my experience also, i myself first encountered ARMA seeing JC on the history channel, and then found the website, i have thought about the ARMA banner thing myself.

* The illustrations in many fechtbucher visually distinguish between the "master" and "student" for purposes of readability (different clothes, beards, whatever); surely we can adapt this concept to our study groups and find ways for onlookers to clearly identify the senior members, beginners, etc?
* Should we not divide large groups into senior and beginner students instead of focusing all of our efforts on newcomers by either dumbing-down our lessons or thrusting them into complicated longsword drills?
* Over the past 2,000 years, the European military tradition has developed a way to stand in groups; shouldn't we strive to show our Western martial intent and discipline by standing in some semblance of a properly covered and aligned formation instead of milling about in the dreaded "gaggle"? A Renn Fair troupe would never do that.
* When the Study Group leader commands us to assume, for ex., Right Ochs, don't you think we would impress the hell out of everyone around us if we all snapped into the guard in unison while shouting out "Right Ochs!" or "Yes, General Free Scholar!"? The concept of showing respect to someone more experienced than you is not exclusive to EMA, and repeating the names of techniques aloud is also a proven way to help commit each term to memory.
* Shouldn't we focus on projecting visual symbols of ARMA as a distinct group by creating banners or signs with the ARMA logo and the words "Association for Renaissance Martial Arts" clearly visible to all passers-by? The 3" black ARMA logo on each red Study Group t-shirt just doesn't cut it from a distance beyond striking range. A 3x5 foot ARMA flag, "Association for Renaissance Martial Arts" in large white block text across the back of each shirt, a wooden ARMA crest hung on a nearby tree, or a combo of all three would do nicely.

I do not disagree with you on most of these point's, i just wonder how many people would be willing to adhere to this, i realy don't care myself i would not have a problem with any of the above, it has been my experience that this does make for better training to a point, the physical sparring and everything else we do in ARMA is also extremely important too.

Jeff

[Stacy Clifford]

There are things that some of us are already doing along these lines. In Houston we are lucky enough to have an indoor facility, so our practices are more private, but we do have some structure we adhere to, though not as much as you describe.

- New students wear white shirts with black athletic pants. All shirts must be tucked in, and any pant strings. After a suitable training period, usually around three months depending on the student, the senior students can test the white shirt on basic knowledge and skills for the right to wear a red shirt. (Consult with John Clements before doing anything like this with your study group, as we have had some advantages in developing senior students here.) Gene and I do not wear anything special distinguishing us as Senior Free-Scholars. The best thing I can think of would be black shirts with red logos like one John has, or maybe the Fiore-inspired gold garters the Provo guys have worn before. It doesn't concern me a great deal to display rank, but I can see your reasoning behind it.

- We do group drills and exercises to start class, then usually break off into senior and junior groups, with the senior students taking turns every week working with the new students.

- When doing group drills, we spread out in rows with senior students in the front so they can be watched by those behind them, with the most senior students on the right (facing forward, not from the drill leader's standpoint).

- We do occasionally have everyone call out the guards as we go through them, though this is not standard practice. In public though some crispness of action is probably a desirable thing. I don't like the "Yes, General Free Scholar!" idea as I think it sounds too closed for questioning, given that many members who might be leading a drill have themselves never been to a seminar yet to train with more experienced people. It just sounds like too much emphasis on rank for where we currently stand in our recreation of lost arts.

- Banners and signs are good things to have. We got signs and fliers printed for our Renaissance Festival demonstrations here, and will be using them for any other public appearances as well.

[David_Knight]

I do not disagree with you on most of these point's, i just wonder how many people would be willing to adhere to this, i realy don't care myself i would not have a problem with any of the above, it has been my experience that this does make for better training to a point, the physical sparring and everything else we do in ARMA is also extremely important too.

I agree that the main focus should be on drills and sparring. Our group does a great job of working on technique, especially when we aren't bogged down with newcomers. But there is IMO definite room for improvement in terms of class structure now that we have a decent number of attendees every week. I'm sure that if you went through Parris Island, you'll never forget the mantra of the combatives instructors in Leatherneck Square: "Violence! Intensity! Discipline!". The ARMA concept of "intent" covers the first two, but the third principle is left up to the individual. If the German military tradition is any indicator, I doubt it was like that in the fechtschulen; a degree of discipline in terms of structure is something that would improve our morale and further distinguish our training program from the hanky-panky pattycake nonsense espoused by other WMA organizations.

I don't like the "Yes, General Free Scholar!" idea as I think it sounds too closed for questioning, given that many members who might be leading a drill have themselves never been to a seminar yet to train with more experienced people. It just sounds like too much emphasis on rank for where we currently stand in our recreation of lost arts.

On second thought, you're right about that. But I do think that enthusiastically repeating the names of each stance and strike would be a useful training/PR tool.

The Houston group sounds very cool. I was very impressed by the structure and intensity of my first ARMA seminar, as it was along similar lines. The second seminar, however, was outside and less formal (as were the Florida gatherings and study group sessions we've had), but by then I had already been in ARMA for several months and didn't need to be impressed. I think that for the purpose of gaining instant legitimacy in the eyes of the public, some sort of official, standardized ARMA study group format similar to the Houston one would benefit us all tremendously.

A few minutes of group calisthenics and stretching wouldn't be a bad thing, either, as it is an expected part of martial arts training. I have never been to an EMA school that did not devote at least 15 minutes to exercise per class, and as JC has discussed at length in his article on strength training, it is absolutely essential to our art.