Thought's on WMA training

[JeffGentry]

Hey folk's

Here is the ARMA credo,

Our Credo of Renaissance Martial Arts Studies:
Respect for History and Heritage

Sincerity of Effort
Integrity of Scholarship
Appreciation of Martial Spirit
Cultivation of Self-Discipline

ok if we don't have time to train i think that is lacking sincerity of effort, if you never read a manuel and want to only to be taught no scholarship is apperant, if your afraid to sweat and get hit occasionaly not much martial spirit there, and if you only train at the group meeting appear's to be a lack of self discipline.

The ARMA credo is the the main reason i joined.

That would be true even if you observed highschool football practice, let alone wrestling. But we aren't training for competition or as a team

I agree we are not training for competition or as a team, we are training in a combat art that is meant to be used to defend your life and kill people so why do we train with less intensity than kid's playing a game, that doesn't seem logical to me, most if not all the unarmed/dagger technique's could be used today in a confrontation with an unarmed opponent or one armed with a knife.

this is off the ARMA method page and i agree with it.


"He must have seen his blood flow have his teeth
crackle under the blow of his adversary, have dashed to earth with
such force as to feel the weight of his foe, and disarmed twenty times.
He must twenty times retrieved his failures, more set than ever
upon the combat. Then will he be able to confront actual war with the
hope of being victorious"
- 14th century poem by Rodger of Haveden

now we don't need to kill each other, we do need to understand that this is an offensive/defensive art and need to train in that manner, watch a modern military hand to hand class there is no whimp footin around they scream and yell and it is an intense experience shouldn't we have that kind of intensity?

It is useful to keep in mind that not everyone joining ARMA is young, full of energy, and possessed of lots of free time

ok a little about me, i am now 37 not real old, and i have a full time job, i was also in a rock climbing accident about 5 year's ago(took about a 40 foot fall) which broke several joint's, r wrist, right lower leg, and ankle and also my left heel and including completely destroying my L5 vertebrae which they bridged with pin's and fussed(L4 to S1) with bone off my hip(i am missing the L5) so my energy level has went down,lol, you would not know it to look at me.

Jeff

[David Craig]

Jeff,

Again, I think it depends on the individual and what he wants to get out of this. Many members are married and have children. They have only a limited amount of time to devote to what is essentially a hobby. Some people live in small apartments and have no place to do solo training. I'm lucky to have a job that gives me a lot of free time, enough space to train outside, and a wife that is pretty understanding. But I can't reasonably expect everyone else to be able to put in as much time as I can if their circumstances are different. Those who are single are only responsible for themselves and can allocate their time as they wish. But those who aren't don't have that luxury.

now we don't need to kill each other, we do need to understand that this is an offensive/defensive art and need to train in that manner, watch a modern military hand to hand class there is no whimp footin around they scream and yell and it is an intense experience shouldn't we have that kind of intensity?

But we aren't in the military and we aren't really preparing for war. We aren't going to be fighting duels, entering combat with a longsword, or using the vast majority of these skills for real. Again, unless you are making a living at WMA, it is a type of hobby. As such the intensity level is going to vary from person to person. People get into this and join for different reasons and have differing expectations. Some people get into it in a big way, spending thousands on armor and weapons and training extensively. Others might never get more than a waster, and just want to learn what they can from group sessions. I don't see a problem with either approach. In a large organization you are always going to have both casual and hardcore participants.

If you lived down the street from me, I'd be happy to get together and train every day if possible. But not everybody in ARMA has either the time or the desire to go to that level.

David Craig

[David_Knight]

Again, I think it depends on the individual and what he wants to get out of this. Many members are married and have children. They have only a limited amount of time to devote to what is essentially a hobby. Some people live in small apartments and have no place to do solo training. I'm lucky to have a job that gives me a lot of free time, enough space to train outside, and a wife that is pretty understanding. But I can't reasonably expect everyone else to be able to put in as much time as I can if their circumstances are different. Those who are single are only responsible for themselves and can allocate their time as they wish. But those who aren't don't have that luxury.

In a good martial arts program, a high level of intensity is sustained throughout each session, exercise is intense, and a lot of time is spent enthusiastically practicing techniques against partners with intent.

Now, if you are an out-of-shape 40 year old married man with only one hour of free time a week, you aren't expected to be able to do all of the push-ups, you aren't expected to be able to defeat everyone, you aren't expected to effortlessly breeze through class...

...but when you come to class, you are expected to try.

I just don't understand why you are shooting for the lowest common denominator. We should be striving to meet those high standards when we train, even if some members can't. That should be our ultimate goal.

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

I just don't understand why you are shooting for the lowest common denominator. We should be striving to meet those high standards when we train, even if some members can't. That should be our ultimate goal.

That is my point and the reason i started this thread, if we as a group are only shooting for the lowest common denominator then we will never be any better off as a whole than any EMA group, again i refer back to the ARMA credo, and this from doing thing's the ARMA way :

"What we definitely want to avoid in our effort is producing a student that is technically proficient in movement patterns yet tactically ineffectual as a fighter. By discarding elements of role-play, choreography, entertainment, and escapism we extract the essence of historical fencing as a modern field of both self-defense and scholarly research (hence, if you have no true interest in the direction we are trying to go in, no honest share for the way we are trying to reach it, you probably should not be here reading this)"

this is a quote from the editorial from John and the ARMA philosophy. Does noone read doing thing's the ARMA way or do they just not care about doing thing's the ARMA way?

i feel that the average EMA practioner is usualy ineffectual as a fighter, so if people are doing thing's such as going to the group meeting once a week and not much else then we will produce an ineffectual fighter which is what usualy is done in EMA.

Again, I think it depends on the individual and what he wants to get out of this. Many members are married and have children. They have only a limited amount of time to devote to what is essentially a hobby. Some people live in small apartments and have no place to do solo training.

I do understand this and if you read the ARMA credo these do not line up with the post previous to this(from doing thing's the ARMA way), it does not in anyway justify not training at least once a week hard even if it is solo, if you do train hard once a week solo you will progress faster than you will just doing the group thing once a week, and i don't care how busy you are you can find one hour a week to get the blood flowing and breathing going whether it is swinging a waster, doing push up's, stretching, footwork, jumping rope for 15 minute's, how many little girl's would love there dad to teach them to jump rope? so in my mind these are only excuse's which hold no water now i broke my leg is a reason because that is something you can't change anything you can change and don't is only an excuse.

that is just my feeling.


Jeff

[David Craig]

...but when you come to class, you are expected to try.

I just don't understand why you are shooting for the lowest common denominator. We should be striving to meet those high standards when we train, even if some members can't. That should be our ultimate goal.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be expected to try. What I am saying is that if you have rigid standards that are set too high, you will drive away some people. And some of those people might be individuals that initially only have a casual interest, but who, once they get into it, develop a stronger commitment.

As for the lowest common demoninator... I don't say that you shoot for it, but that's what you tend to get in a large, loose organization. To put it into medieval terms, I see ARMA as a decentralized feudal state. You have the top leadership who is recognized by all, and common training goals that are held throughout the state. But how each barony, county, or dukedom -- the study groups -- conducts their training is up to the locals. In many cases it is up to the individual knights, the members, to decide what type of training they wish to pursue and how hard they want to train.

If you are talking about emphasizing a more martial approach for your own particular study group, that makes sense to me. But for all the reasons I've mentioned previously, I don't think trying to impose such ideas on the organization as a whole will work well. I see the broad-based nature of ARMA and its openess to people with different approaches, backgrounds, and levels of motivation as a strength, not a weakness.

David Craig

[David Craig]

I do understand this and if you read the ARMA credo these do not line up with the post previous to this(from doing thing's the ARMA way), it does not in anyway justify not training at least once a week hard even if it is solo, if you do train hard once a week solo you will progress faster than you will just doing the group thing once a week, and i don't care how busy you are you can find one hour a week to get the blood flowing and breathing going whether it is swinging a waster, doing push up's, stretching, footwork, jumping rope for 15 minute's, how many little girl's would love there dad to teach them to jump rope? so in my mind these are only excuse's which hold no water now i broke my leg is a reason because that is something you can't change anything you can change and don't is only an excuse.

I look at it from a different perspective. For myself, I try to do some solo training every day, plus some brief strength/flexibility workouts, plus some rope jumping to work on my endurance. But that's because that is what I want to do. If other people don't want to do that, and just want to show up at group sessions every once in awhile, that's their choice. They don't need an excuse. They are adults and they can do what they want as far as I'm concerned.

My main difference with you and David is that I don't see a problem with having some casual members who take what you and I might consider a passing interest in WMA. This organization is for the self-motivated. And some people are more motivated than others. I don't consider it my job or the job of ARMA to motivate them. Again, for most of us, this is a hobby, not an occupation. Each person has to decide what they want to get out of it and how much time & effort they will devote.

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

I'll post the link to doing thing's the ARMA way so i do not have to copy paste it all, take a look at what the philosophy of the ARMA way.


http://www.thearma.org/essays/Way.htm

this is what i am trying to base my opinion's on.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be expected to try. What I am saying is that if you have rigid standards that are set too high, you will drive away some people. And some of those people might be individuals that initially only have a casual interest, but who, once they get into it, develop a stronger commitment.

i think the reason's for people coming to ARMA are varied and many, if i drive away the less commited oh well if i settle for a standard everyone can acheive then we are no diffrent than any other "Martial art's" group, the bottom line is if we realy want to be the best the of the HEMA group's i feel we need to do thing's the ARMA way and if you don't have time, or the inclination, then i'm sorry we can't help you, I liken it to the TV ad's for the Marine Corps they are geared for those who want to excel not just to be in the military and there training is designed to weed people out who do not have the will to succeed, not to just get you through.


Jeff

[Doug Marnick]

The following excerpts are taken from the ARMA way essay that Jeff cites:

"Within this teamwork, every member is free to study and practice what and how they want."

"The level of proficiency achieved by our member[s] is only a matter of each individual's commitment and personal involvement."

"It's up to each individual to decide for themselves how far down ['the path'] to go and to share whatever they find."

"Can we do different exercises or drills or use different equipment? Yes, certainly!"

I define myself as a casual practitioner. Jeff said the ARMA credo is one of the main reasons he joined. I have nothing but respect for that statement. However, I hope he and others can accept David Craig's observation that other members join for other reasons. I would be concerned for myself, and the organization, if ARMA makes its structure so rigid as to "weed out" the less committed members.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Doug

I am glad to see that you are looking at the thing's i am using as reference, and you are absolutly correct, i do not necessarily want to "weed out" people, i do want people to think, that is why i put in the refrence's so that people would go look and think about whaty and why we are here, i personaly think we should all know why we are here and what our expectation's of ourselve's and other's are, me personaly i like to challenge people to do more and have people challenge me to do more, and evaluate what i do and why i do it and not just follow the crowd and half heartedly do what everyone else is doing, that is how we will excel in the way we do thing's.

I define myself as a casual practitioner.

even a casual practioner could be very good if they are getting bested on a regular basis by those who are more "serious" just for the simple fact they get tired of being bested and start looking for what they need to do to improve, does that make sense?



Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

I am also into the "UFC/MMA" thing you mentioned aswell . With the interest of competeing at some point, and one of my intentions to help promote the validity of what we're doing here is that I make a large part of my "stand-up game" the ringen techniques we study in the manuals

That will; be difficult for several reasons.
First and foremost the difference between sporting application and self defense application. and no the difference is not that one is real and the other is not, the real difference is that in a sporting application there are devastating techniques from self defense (like the elbow break on the shoulder) that simply will not work in a sporting environment because your opponents will be experienced enough to avoid. This distinction exists even in modern MMA/NHB styles like Brazilian JiuJitsu where they teach sport and self defense differently.

Its very difficult to throw and experienced grappler without opening yourself to a disadvantage, its the nature of the element of sport.

The only art with a historical reconstruction context i would suggest would be Pankration as that was in fact a combat sport itself, so many of its concepts lend itself better to a sporting environment.

[GaryGrzybek]

Wow, this thread really brings some good issues to the surface.

I believe as an organization we must strive to meet common goals but this can be done without becoming overly structured or rigid. I agree there should be a certain standard set for quality practitioners and researchers. I think this can be done without closing the door on those who lack certain abilities but really want to be part of ARMA. Maybe these people have disabilities or lack the time to actively participate in every way a scholar should. If a person has the ability but doesn't care than that's different. Those people could be screened and evaluated on whether they should stay with ARMA or not. Maybe there could be another ranking offered to those with limited participation? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I just feel that we should be careful not to create such a narrow doorway for those who really want in but cannot give 100%

[KatherineJohnson]

Hi Mike,


Yeh I took that into consideration. While breaking someones arm over the shoulder...or ripping someones fingers apart certainly isnt going to fly to well in the ring I've managed to use some of the techniques and concepts with limited success (due to my n00bness and my opponents being more experianced in grappling)

I've especially done relatively well with the collar grab defenses while in gi. Some of this stuff just takes a little adaptation to make it more ring friendly.

Our ancestors obviously made this stuff work "in earnest and in play" against other skilled opponents. So we should strive to do no less.

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's

First and foremost the difference between sporting application and self defense application. and no the difference is not that one is real and the other is not, the real difference is that in a sporting application there are devastating techniques from self defense (like the elbow break on the shoulder) that simply will not work in a sporting environment because your opponents will be experienced enough to avoid. This distinction exists even in modern MMA/NHB styles like Brazilian JiuJitsu where they teach sport and self defense differently.

Well i don't necessarily disagree with this, i do think you can take the arm break and thing's out when you go into the "ring" and still use the rest, in the "day" it would have been the same with an experienced wrestler they would know these also and seek to avoid them and it can still work.

Its very difficult to throw and experienced grappler without opening yourself to a disadvantage, its the nature of the element of sport.

It can be diffcult to throw anyone who doesn't want to be thrown and still maintain your advantage when you go to lift for the throw and a fist slam's into your head it will tend to make a throw difficult, it is the nature of self defence, it is still possible to do, grappling, ringen, wrestling are all dependant on surprise and speed, and i think it could be a good "test", it prove's nothing realy if all we do is face each other and not go against other's who are also "Martial athlete's".

Our ancestors obviously made this stuff work "in earnest and in play" against other skilled opponents. So we should strive to do no less.

i agree whole heartedly with Katherine on this, me and Jaron at practice last night worked a few new ringen technique's and then we just kind of wrestled we went at each other full on we didn't punch or eye gouge we indicated these type of thing's verbaly though if that technique was a good option if people would have saw it they would have thought we were killing each other it was very fast and hard and intense and niether of us were hurt and we threw each other and choked it was pure meaness there was nothing nice or friendly about, it we were going to the edge of hurting each other and then bringing it back down.

I think this is how we should practice and when it is done we are all still friend's.

Jeff

[John_Clements]

why does it seem we don't realy see that in most of what we do, we have some very good warrior's nothing on the level of some of the above though, why?

Hey, speak for yourself <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey John

In reply to:
why does it seem we don't realy see that in most of what we do, we have some very good warrior's nothing on the level of some of the above though, why?



Hey, speak for yourself

Ok i was generalizing, i have yet to meet you in person, i did see you on the history channel that was why i got into ARMA, your skill's are most impressive. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jeff