Staff-work, thrusting vs striking

[JeanryChandler]

Which does more damage? From reading a bit of Marrozzo and Digrassi on polearms, and several historical accouns of pole arm use by the Flemmish and Swiss, I have come to the conlusion that a lot of pole -arms were used to thrust (jab), including sometimes with the heel or butt, and then to strike with when opportunity presented itself (or was created)/

The underlying idea is that the strike has potentially more impact. This is understandable with a halberd, or especially a morgenstern or godendag, but I'm wondering if this does indeed translate to a staff. It is how we tend to use them in our sparring group, but we haven't studied any of the later English staff masters.

I had a question recently about the stats in this book I did. With regard to staves (all the way in size from bata / alpeen to "smallstaff"), should thrust be easier to accomplish and less damaging, and strike be a bit harder to accomplish but more damaging?

This is particularly aimed to you S. since I know you have done a great deal of research...

Jeanry

[Stacy Clifford]

Not as much research as I'd like, really, but what I have seen I think I understand pretty well. You may remember from Southern Knights that I showed a couple of one-handed slinging strikes with the staff from Meyer that would be absolutely devastating to anybody not wearing armor. I think those are going to do more damage than any thrust just because of the sheer momentum they build up combined with the mass of the staff. Dave Welch posted a pretty neat experiment with this on here a few months back that's worth another look. Still, thrusts with the staff are very strong, and the one-handed thrust is fast too, and if you take one to the ribs or face, you are NOT going to be getting up anytime soon. Point is, a staff is not meant for use against heavy armor, but in lightly armored or unarmored combat it really doesn't matter which does more damage, because a staff is a heavy enough weapon that both are more than sufficient to do you in for good. No mistake about it, staff is a nasty weapon.

[JeanryChandler]

Stacy,

Thanks for replying.

I agree that the staff is dangerous indeed. Even in armored combat, I think a staff could knock a guy off his feet long enough for you to get away.

I know it's commonly held that everything springs from longsword, but how much do you think staff technique merges with pole-arm techniques, such as the DiGrassi and Marozzo bill and partisan stuff?

One other thing, didn't John post an article here a while back about a guy (English IIRC) who successfully defended himself against two sword and buckler assassins using a staff?

Jr

[Stacy Clifford]

You probably could bash a guy in armor pretty good with a staff, but plate is pretty well designed for deflecting blows, so at the very least I think a thrust from a staff is going to be less useful. Take that away and the guy in plate has an easier time closing on you while you try to make a strike big enough to hurt. This is why they started adding sharp metal things to the end of long sticks in the first place.

I haven't looked at Di Grassi and Marozzo too much, but I know in Meyer that polearms immediately follow staff instruction, so the progression is rather natural. I think the main thing you lose is the one-handed attacks, since it would be too hard to control the weight at the end, recover, and maintain edge alignment. However, you gain lots of nifty hooking and binding action to go with that extra chopping and bashing power (for just $19 more!), which is just what you need to go up against armor.

Incidentally, I've found that shorter staffs can be used to do many of the same techniques as a greatsword. It's really not that hard to do the meisterhau with a 6 ft. staff. I haven't seen any manual material just yet that recommends that, so I can't tell you if it's the most efficient use of the weapon or not, but it works. Most of the stuff I've seen is about staff vs. staff, so it may be too risky against another staff, but fine against other weapons.

There is a piece somewhere about an Englishman beating three rapier-wielding Spaniards, but I don't recall the one you're talking about offhand.

[Casper Bradak]

With even the "heaviest" polearms, you don't have any less ability to effectively thrust single than you do with a staff, but striking blows with one hand can be definitely harder to perform or recover from (I train regularly with replica polearms of various sorts). Edge alignment isn't affected unless you're using a round shaft, which I haven't seen on polearms with a prominent striking edge.
Anyhow, the amount of damage of strike vs thrust I doubt is much of a real life issue. It's more of a what works best in the given situation issue. Wether you fracture his skull or knock his head off, run your point into his organs or entirely through his body, he's still dead.

[JeanryChandler]

There is a piece somewhere about an Englishman beating three rapier-wielding Spaniards, but I don't recall the one you're talking about offhand.

That must be the one I was thinking of..

JR

[Jaron Bernstein]

Stacy,

Just on the off chance....do you or anyone else have Meyer's staff chapter (or any of the other Meyer chapters besides the longword) translated into English.

[Stacy Clifford]

Interesting. I wish I could do some training with polearms down here, but that's just not feasible for me right now. I would agree on thrusting single, but on a couple of the big single hand strikes I know from German staff, I think it would be difficult to make sure your blade is lined up coming out of the rotation around the head with only one hand to guide it, regardless of the shape of the shaft. Not at all impossible, but it seems to me there's a lot of room for error. As far as staff strike vs. thrust goes, that's exactly what I said earlier. Both do way more damage than is necessary to kill, so it doesn't really matter which one is stronger.

[Brian Hunt]

Paulus Hector Mair uses a large number of thrusts in his manual, but he likes to thrust to vuneralbe areas, the face/eyes, the throat, the belly, the groin. There is also an elbow thrust that is used much like a stop thrust, and the manual will use a chest thrust to move your opponent away from you in order to create distance for a different attack to a different opening. While he does use strikes, there seem to be more thrusts (much like a rapier) changing through to different openings once there has been a bind or a parry. There are also some of those one handed strikes similar to Meyer's.

Brian Hunt

GFS.

WWW.PAULUSHECTORMAIR.COM

[Casper Bradak]

and the manual will use a chest thrust to move your opponent away from you in order to create distance for a different attack to a different opening.

That's interesting in that it sounds a lot like a motion used by Master Ringeck when fencing in armour with the longsword.

[David_Knight]

To expand on what Brian said, PHM generally uses strikes to create openings for thrusts or to force the opponent to bind. Winds and thrusts from the bind are very common.

In fact, PHM's unique dual-overhand grip seems specifically designed for powerful thrusts and maximum point control, but it doesn't lend itself very well to the traditional 8 cuts (the mechanics of this would best be explained through photos, which I'll try to get on our website asap)

I also believe that PHM's staff techniques are directly transferable to the spear, which would explain the emphasis on thrusting. I do not think it is coincidence that he uses the Latin terms hasta, "spear", and lancea, "lance", and the German terms stanngen, "staff", and spiess, "spear", to describe what appear to be a shortstaff and quarterstaff, respectively.

Here is an image towards the end of his C93 MS that plainly shows the left figure running his opponent through with a spear, and the word PHM uses for that weapon is lanngspiess, "long-spear."



David Knight
ARMA SoFL

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

That's nice put up a link to a site coming in 2005, had my hope's up to get some staff translation's (kind of like the peanut can full of spring snake's), actualy i can see the usefulness of a two hand overgrip i played with staff a bit in my younger day's, using EMA book's <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> , and i found that an over grip was very versatile, i am no expert this is MHO, i do want to do some staff work though.


Jeff

[David_Knight]

We will have some content online very soon. Mike Cartier and I have been filming some shortstaff drills, and I hope to have photo walkthroughs of a few basic techiques online within the next two weeks.

Key word: "hope" <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Coming in 2005" is for the translation itself.

[Jay Vail]

Jeanry, I never had much confidence on the thrust of a staff until a small experience sparring with SCA guys. I had a “longsword,” which to the SCA means a short rattan staff wrapped in duct tape. This model had a “thrusting tip,” close cell foam tapped to one end. Despite these innovations, the thing is still just a stick. There were a couple of times I got behind a sword-and-board guy’s shield and landed thrusts. Each time, the guy, even though he was armored with a brigantine, called to stop the fight because he had been hurt. Apparently, you’re able to generate a lot of power with the thrust of a staff weapon which can do some damage, especially when you land in a vulnerable area like the Fertile Crescent.

I was also told stories of guys having their helmets blasted off their heads by the thrusts of “spearmen” during SCA wars, or having the wind knocked out of them when hit in the body despite the armor.

That’s *some* practical experience, for what it’s worth.

[Mike Habib]

To add another interesting training anecdote, I have found that the number of opponents can also affect how thrusts and strikes are used.

I train on light polearms and spears fairly regularly, and I generally work in some practice with multiple opponents at each practice. I use a dual overhand grip rather often. I find it to be very good for landing blows to the lower extremities of opponents. I thrust at thighs or cut at ankles, knees (the side specifically), and shins. This will slow down a few of the opponents to deal with the remaining individuals in a more focused manner.

Another interesting point regarding thrust vs. cut comes into play when opponents have large shields. Rapid strikes aimed high can force an opponent to keep a shield raised, which is then followed by a low downward thrust aimed at the very top of the knee (this would, in reality, tend to damage the space behind the kneecap and disable the leg, even with armor).

Just a few thoughts. Keep in mind that those anecdotes all come from using weapons of 6 ft in length only, the situation obviously changes with greater reach.

Cheers,
--Mike Habib