Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Problem?

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Shane Smith
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Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Problem?

Postby Shane Smith » Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:45 pm

Out of the dozen and a half or so visitors that we have had come to our Study Group for introductory training here in VAB over the last two years or so, Only about 6 have applied for membership. There are those who will say that "one out of three aint bad", but still,I think it is important to understand the "why's?" and "how comes?" that are behind these stats.

Of the six that applied, only three of those became members of the local study group.The others became ARMA Associate members due to living far from VAB;But what of the others...

Well, it seems that those who don't get involved in a lasting way display one or more of the following traits that are perhaps not conducive to intense martial endevours;

Many who come out think that swords are cool (as well they are!) and are very enthusiastic until their first taste of bouting. At this point, the rabbit in some will emerge and they will seek to protect their fragile ego's by making excuses for not participating in fencing freeplay. Their fear of public embarrassment masters them and they're shortly gone.The majority of those with Asian MA experience will likewise have noted this trend as well in about a third of those that come through the doors of commercial training halls.I consider this no loss but I hope that the individual will one day master themselves to better face the rest of life.

Some show up because they just watched "Lord of the Rings" and found us while searching for info on "swordfighting" on the web. These folks do well for several sessions until they realize that apart from simply wailing on one another in fencing(which this type particularly often seems to enjoy),there is much scholarly research to be done and that a good fencer is judged by the frequency of clean hits and skillful application of technique. As they continue to pose in freeplay,they continue to lose their hands much to their consternation.This type will not take to the source-texts and so,they never improve and remain entry level students until they quit through frustration at the lack of their self-induced improvement(You can only do the flowery twirling maneuver from highlander in bouting so many times before everyones sense of humor wears thin and asks you to buck up or get out) <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

The last class of deserters are those hard-core reenactors that show up because they saw a cool show or two on the History Channel and they want to "Be a Knight". These folks are always carrying on with extra-curricular reenacting and Renn-fairing and although this type DOES have the potential to handle both past-times reasonably successfully if they are motivated individuals, most will hang on awhile and then realize that we locally will never call them by any un-earned Title of Nobility nor engage in their mutual Role-Playing at an ARMA training session. They often ultimately choose a Title of false nobility at a Renn-faire that is easily assumed over that earned Title that signifies Martial Excellence; "Swordsman",or "Scholar".Once they opt for the apparently ego-satisfying high of fantasy role-play,they're gone. It is this last group that I have the most hope of. I know quite a few Swordsmen that fall here that are successful at the hilt and can keep separate the two.

This pretty well sums up my observations and I feel that the three types above may yet achieve success with the rabbits the least likely and the Reenactors most likely(Pure martial artists tend to stay as they appreciate the fact that they are out-performed on demand on a session by session basis).What have you seen in your own Training?

*All opinions expressed in the above post are my own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of anyone else at ARMA~VAB or my fellow ARMA Swordsmen/Swordswomen*
Shane Smith~ARMA Forum Moderator
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JeffGentry
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby JeffGentry » Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:16 pm

Hey Shane

Here in Columbus we had a run of about 15 people for a bit and it paired down to four girl's fairly regularly, all of which are student's at Ohio Weslyian University, and not member's of ARMA proper, me personaly i was one of those who came to ARMA after seeing JC on the history channel, in my mind it was all about a legit fighting art, i have seen the other's you describe and just don't know.

Jeff
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Casper Bradak
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Problem?

Postby Casper Bradak » Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:57 pm

Each of the reasons you stated could still be broken down into several sub-species of nerd, but whatever the reasons for those who don't stick around are, what does it matter so long as you know that you and your group are doing your part to make the right kind of potential students stay?
And like you said, in any martial arts class, that percentage really isn't bad.
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:41 pm

Your group consists of you and four girls? Cool!

J
"We can't all be saints"
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:21 pm

Yes, this is a problem. For a long time our group was 3 people. Then we got 15 and life was good. But they have attritted away to 4 or so of the 15. Granted, they are rather ferocious (and adorable, which isn't exactly a trait I normally associate with someone swinging a waster at you), but it is still only 4. I am rather stumped and frustrated at our inability to 1. recruit people at all and 2. convince them to stick around beyond 2 or 3 sessions.

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JeffGentry
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby JeffGentry » Sat Dec 25, 2004 10:05 am

Hey Folk's

I think in our group people tend to leave because i am hard on them, i didn't expect our "Girl's" to stick around too long, they are mean though the term cat fight doesn't describe there method of unarmed and dagger sparring, they will bite and i don't mean a simulated, one girl bit a guy in our group he actualy screamed i thought he was hurt she left a nice set of teeth mark's through two shirt's, and one "Girl" split Jaron's eye open he had to get stitch's, our girl's are mean(three of them are very small in stature i am talking no taller than 5 feet one is about 6 foot but very slim 130 maybe), that maybe why we don't get many that stick around in our group we tend to play pretty rough. lol

Jeff
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Ray Brunk
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby Ray Brunk » Sat Dec 25, 2004 10:34 am

I have the same concerns in our area. We've had everything from role-players to fantasy gamers to AMA practioners. We've been through a dozen in the last year. I think that most of the recruits are turned off by the fact that it is work and not just fooling around. It seems that gamers want to play, role players want to act and AMA guys want to spend the entire time correcting, making excuses for their inadequacies, and telling me I need to read the Book of 5 Rings to be a real swordsman. They all seem to start out with starry eyes and seem genuinely interested but fizzle out quickly. I also get alot of email hits from the practice partners list. Unfortunately I have yet to have anyone actually show up. Too easy to shoot an email while surfing the web. I had one guy email me every few days for over a month. He was only located 30 minutes away but never made it to a single session.
We did a demonstration for a few people at a local gym. A couple guys were all excited, asking a million questions and indicating their desire to get involved, never to be seen again.
At the Sterling Forest Renn-Fest we did a short demo. We drew a crowd of probably 50-60 people including several Renn-Fest employees. Right off, one of the Renn-fest "swordsman" stated out loud: "You guys aren't re-enactors but the real thing, huh?" We handed out Flyers,the ARMA website, our email addresses and phone numbers. Guys were following us around while we were walking around and stopped by others for questions throughout the day. Can you believe....not one email or phone call.
I check my breath, shower regularly and use deoderant. Still doing something wrong...lol
It does get discouraging at times. I've found 3 great partners, and that is what keeps me positive.
There are more out there
Merry Christmas,
Ray
ARMA Upstate NY
Ray Brunk
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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Problem?

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Sat Dec 25, 2004 10:56 am

In can be discouraging having such a hard time growing study groups. I've had similar experiences to all the ones related here, folks come and go and only a few seem to be really into actually studying and practicing on a regular basis. In the long run though, we're probably better off. I guess we just need to keep plugging away, training in a serious and enthusiastic manner and eventually, we'll attract the right kind of members. I'd rather have a small group of high quality practitioners with a good attitude than a large group of wanabees or posers.
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Douglas S
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby Douglas S » Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:46 pm

Shane, looks like you have gone farther than some, in that you have tried to understand what it is that attracts recruits.

It's certainly reasonable to try to evaluate your class elements, divine what may be driving people away, and adjust. Or, confident that you have quality to offer, take a "stay or go" policy, and be patient, knowing that you will attract the people you want.

I was watching a young lady who took our longsword class. When the module for thrusting finished, I spied her in the hallway, in a deep funk. I think the material was too gory for her. She never returned. Because she was young, and I wasn't the provost, I refrained from talking to her then; I wish I had...
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Aaron Pynenberg
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:59 pm

Man, all you guys are right on, I had a hard time at first as well, we are starting to grow and people are showing up with much more regularity. I think it all has to do with the mentality of the group. I am trying to organize a couple "night out" kind of things as well to get to know each other better as well. That of course is in addition to the training we conduct, which has become much more regimented. In my veiw the worst thing you can do is play it by the seat of pants and just do what the group feels like kind of stuff. People see right through that kind of stuff and do not want to participate. Try and have your training set before you meet. This seems to bring alot to the table- Later- Aaron
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:40 pm

We started a local informal group after a bunch of talk on the internet (with a local yahoo group) in the wake of SK, and a couple of meetings back around March of 2004. There were about 20 or 30 people in the two internet groups and about 15 showed up to the meetings we had over beers. Interest seemed high, and talk was LARGE, but I wanted to wait and see who really put their money where their mouth was.

A fairly large group of people did show up to our first practice in a somnewhat crowded park in the suburbs. There were a couple of older ARMA guys who lived fairly far away in the country, a couple of very opinionated SCA heavy combat people, some kids from this sparring group that does exhibitions at the Ren Faire (mixing kick-boxing with boffer fighting, I call them 'karate kids'), a couple of SCA-rapier guys (notably distinguishible from the other SCA guys), and a couple of my friends from my old stick-fighting group.

Initially none of us really knew what we were doing in terms of real WMA, but a few of us could spar well and one of the rapier guys and I remembered a handful of things from SK. Sparring experience kindled the "karate kids" interest, and the small amount of correct WMA technique interested the rapier guy and the people from my old group. But the other people never came back.

Eventually, we moved to a more isolated park in the City. The group had quickly whittled down to just a couple of the old stickfighters, the rapier guy (lenny) and me. The "karate kids" also showed up every so often to learn a few tricks to one-up their tournament opponents, but quit coming when the weather got really hot.

A few of us stuck it out though, for a while it was just Lenny and I, but we kept at it and finally sussed out some basic things from the fechtbuchs and began to apply them more and more successfully. I bought several fechtbuchs. We built up a supply of more and better equipment and finally had gloves, helmets, and really nice (if I say so) padded sparring weapons, as well as wasters and steel rapiers, and a couple of blunts..

Gradually I lured my old stick-fighting buddies back in. They were seduced I think by seeing our marginally understood WMA in action, by the fact that even our limited WMA techniques were demonstrably superior to the old stick-fighting stuff. They started showing up more and more regularly.

Now we have six regulars: Jean (me), Skip, Marjorie, Chris, John L. and Lenny. We get visitors every so often as well. Some people have come from far away to train with us, and have stayed in contact.

A few others came and went this year. Most came one time and quit because they couldn't handle full-contact sparring.

Most of the core group I am left with really enjoy sparring. I think that is key. They like to see the techniques work and especially when they can tell they are improving in skill. It helps especially to have visitors from other groups and backgrounds to try out our skills on. Sparring has become the reward, for which they are willing to do some drill, and a little study though we still dont do enough especially of the latter.

But I have a positive feeling about our group now. We have gained a little bit of local notoriety, people have come to watch us spar and apparently like what they see. My core group is really interested in WMA now and are reading fecthbuchs on their own. I think for a lot of us older guys it has replaced fighting as an outlet, lets us feel like we still have our hand in a bit without risking jail or hospital! We do a lot more drill now than we used to though and some of the newer people (Marjorie and John L.) seem to prefer drill to sparring, which is ok.

Overall, we seem to be building some small momentum, but I wish I knew how to attract more people, even those who were not necessarily as hard core about sparring. But I'd rather have half a dozen serious people to train with every week than a bunch of phonies.

I think our biggest problem is that we really dont have a highly experienced and well read leader (i.e. 'master') who can direct our activities. We have somewhat overcome this by learning how to work together as a team, now that everyone has caught up to some degree in terms of WMA basics, everyone chips in on what we should do next, and it seems to be working. We can always rely to some degree on this forum for advice <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Another big problem is the lack of an indoor training facility. From around June through September it averages around 90 degrees F and 95% humidity here, which makes training in pads and helmets very trying to say the least.

We also remain an unafilliated, informal group still (we dont even have a name), which definately doesn't help, and will probably remain the case for the foreseeable future, but that may be for the best for the time being.

Overall, I know we are making gradual progress toward learning WMA, and that is all that really matters to me.

Jeanry
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Devin Wilson
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby Devin Wilson » Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:40 am

In some ways it is good that ARMA goes through so many first-timers to get a regular: it shows we're maintaining high standards.

I think everyone's posts have explained most of the phenomenon. I have wondered if study group sub-culture could be a less common factor. In Provo I've noticed common interests beyond just the art, as well as similiar personalities. I'm sure much of this is because people interested in renaissance martial arts and the ARMA approach will likely share many similar characteristics, but could this unintentionally create a clique that makes some potnetial regulars feel uncomfortable? Thoughts?

Devin Wilson

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claus drexler
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Problem?

Postby claus drexler » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:20 am

Hi Shane,

you nicely summed it up deviding in three categories. I know these, too... ;-)

From my own experience I would like to add two things:

1) People leave because their martial approach/need is different from the approach of group A, B or C - thus their needs are not satisfied.

2) The teaching ability of instructor A, B or C is not satisfying and therefore does not cause further interest in the chosen subject.

best,
Claus

"Ochs - historische Kampfkünste e.V."
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GaryGrzybek
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Problem?

Postby GaryGrzybek » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:59 am

Your not alone my friend...

Our group has also seen people come and go. I think some of it's due to the fact that we meet early on Saturday mornings and people just don't want to get up so early. The majority of us prefer this since it leaves the rest of the day open for personal things but some just don't care for it. I used to be more flexible in the schedule but it gets too complicated after a while. Other things include the fact that I like to get out there and sweat. I think some people just don't want to put the hard work into it. There also seems to be an issue with membership. We've had a few that show up a several times a month but still have no interest in membership. This part really annoys me since it's relatively inexpensive and the benefits are well worth it. The group can also go from 2 to 8 on any given day which makes it difficult to plan our routine. I think my involvement with a local fitness club will eventually help with recruitment and I plan on hanging up some new flyers soon. Now the winter is here and it's only going to get worse :-(
Gary

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ARMA Northern N.J.
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David_Knight
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Re: Why do recruits go away? Is this really a Prob

Postby David_Knight » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:31 am

Another big problem is the lack of an indoor training facility. From around June through September it averages around 90 degrees F and 95% humidity here, which makes training in pads and helmets very trying to say the least.


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