Core Assumptions

[Webmaster]

An insightful and significant new article on historical fencing studies is now posted in the Essays section:

Core Assumptions and the Exploration of Historical Fencing

[JeffGentry]

Hey John

Awesome article, i totaly agree with what you say, i know at time's some of my post may seem odd, the article though cover's some of the thing's i think about and try to get other people to think about in there training whether or not i am successful is another story my writing leave's alot to be desired.


Jeff

[GaryGrzybek]

Great article <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think it may help clarify some of the reasons why we approach this art in such a way that we do.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gary

I think it may help clarify some of the reasons why we approach this art in such a way that we do.

Do you mean as an organization or as individuals? I am assuming you mean as an organization.

Jeff

[GaryGrzybek]

Well yes, as an organization but also as individuals. As individuals I think we have choosen the study approach that we feel is most affective for us. It's not about jumping on the band wagon, it's about thinking along the same path.

[JeanryChandler]

I think life-experience effects the core assumptions you bring to WMA. Thats is the reason why I think the demographics are what they are, so many ex- and current military, ex- and current law enforcement. And quite a few punk rockers.

What on earth do those two types of people have in common? Lets say a more cynical than average, arguably a more realistic than average concept of just how nasty the world can really be.

These days, a lot of middle class Americans really have no idea how harsh life often is. In say 15th century Germany, there were few people if any who cherished any illusions that life was like MTV or the Brady Bunch...

DB

[leam hall]

You mean Marsha isn't still going to school? Dang! <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I think most of the ARMA types I've met have blended the "fighter/researcher" mindset well. It's easy to be one or the other, but you get more "reality with value" in the combination. I've certainly had my suppositions about the value of moves clarified. The more we think and practice the more accurate our practice.

[John_Clements]

Punk rockers??? Not that I am aware of within our membership, nor within the community of historical fencing studies as a whole.

Not that it matters, if that is your impression of us for whatever reason.

JC

[JeanryChandler]

Punk rockers??? Not that I am aware of within our membership, nor within the community of historical fencing studies as a whole.

Not that it matters, if that is your impression of us for whatever reason.

JC

Well, former punk rockers <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />. Most of us are grown up now and no longer cut our hair funny.

I dont mean to cast aspersions on ARMA though, and I freely admit I've only met maybe 20 or 30 ARMA members at SK, plus interracted with perhaps an equal number online, so it's hardly a systematic survey. Some people did mention their background on this very forum, others have told me privately. Maybe they wish to keep it a secret!

You would be surprised though, the P.R. is not so wierd of a beast as it sounds vis a vis WMA. A lot of folks in my generation were in that sub-culture for a while.

Someone who had been in the punk scene is likely to have at least some experience fighting, maybe a lot, and often against very bad odds. They are likely to be comfortable with very rough and rowdy forms of entertainment,

Most would be fairly streetwise, and probably have lived rough at least once or twice in their life, maybe for a long time.

Most of my old friends from 'the scene' have had martial arts training and probably at least half did a tour or more in the military, as I did.

Contrary to the hollywood image, a lot of punks are pretty bright and reasonably well read.

Ultimately the whole ethic of 'punk' was arguably anti-phoniness (making them a bad mix with the SCA <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), and was always about Do It Yourself.

All of this, esp being streetwise and exposed to the darker side of the urban world, per the thread and your article, (if I understood it correctly) has a bearing on seeing life with a little more of an awareness of how it can be with all the comfort stripped away.

At the risk of sounding cynical, I think people in the Renaissance or Middle ages had much fewer illusions about life than the average K-mart shopper today...

But to be honest I met a lot more ex-military and ex-police than punks in ARMA so dont even worrry about it.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

nor within the community of historical fencing studies as a whole.

...guess that counts me out of the community of historical fencing studies...

JR

[John_Clements]

I still don't understand you, but regardless, this issue is not on topic.

Our concern in our fencing efforts is really is not about "phoniness" but about sincerity and self-discipline ---whether in terms of physical conditioning or academic research. These are areas which in ARMA we stress to our members.

[JeanryChandler]

Our concern in our fencing efforts is really is not about "phoniness" but about sincerity and self-discipline

What would you call the opposite of sincerity?

whether in terms of physical conditioning or academic research. These are areas which in ARMA we stress to our members.

Well, I think I know what you are driving at.

To bring it back on topic though, my point was that the demographics of the WMA groups seem to reflect different core assumptions about history, about the world. Someone with a clearer grasp of how unpredictable, violent, and dangerous modern life an be may see Renaissance fencing differently.

A police officer with years of experience on the force, or someone who has been through a tour in the military (as many ARMA members seem to have done) could be expected to have more martial core assmuptions (if you will).

I would even argue that as well for the other demographic group I mentioned.

Now if I could only figure out the link between WMA and the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...

DB

[David Lindholm]

An excellent article. I must say that john C. have hit right on the spot. I agree completly, especially that there is often no real reason for people to disagree, it is often the case that we all have assumptions that we just do not notice and these tend to color our work. So disagreement is often about our personal baggage and nothing else. Very good reading, something that we all should keep in teh back of our minds in this work.
Yours Sincerely,
David Lindholm
ARMA Senior Researcher

[John_Clements]

Thanks, David.
I think anyone who has ever attempted to conduct any type of historical fencing practice has done so by first making certain core assumptions. Whatever the objective or intention, such assumptions are based upon our knowledge and understanding of weaponry, military history, and combatives. Yet, whenever the attempt is made to put core assumptions into actual practice they are invariably modified by certain factors: what we can safely do, what we are able to physically perform, what equipment or tools we employ, and what our overall motivations are for doing so (e.g., reenactment games, entertainment displays, sporting contests, stunt performances, or re-development of real martial skills).

Ciao,

JC

[John_Clements]

To add a fresh thought to this thread, since i have recived an enormous amoun to fprivate compliments for this peice, I also feel the issue of "core assumptions" unquestionably affects the act of translating the historical sources. Each translator/interpreter-author of a modern edition works according to his own understanding of fencing and fighting. This proceeds in much the same way there are today dozens of different versions of classic Asian texts on the art of war produced by modern scholars each with their own unique take on the source some of which are more insightful or accurate but none of which can be considered truly definitive.

JC