Slashing cuts and their effects

[Aaron Pynenberg]

So, Last night being New Year's we of course had fight after fight in the Downtown of our City. This Bouncer is in the middle of about 10 guys fighting. He tries to break it up but is not effective in his methods. He walks away for a minute when the back of his arm feels "wet".

Unknown to him, he was cut from about the elbow to the shoulder joint, almost down to the bone. (You could see some of the bone near his elbow) He was telling me that it really was not hurting just feeling kind of numb and cold.

This got me thinking about how this might effect someone during an actual swordfight. Obviously the body can withstand alot of cuts vs. thrusts, but you have to wonder about the mentality of the fighters. They always talk about surviving knife fights you must understand you probably will be cut, did swordfighters understand this as well? Did it effect their appraoch? Next time I spar I am going to think about this guy's arm and see if it alters my approach. ie more VOR vs NACH?

What do you guys think?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Aaron

I have alway's said i would rather be cut with a sharp knife than a dull one, it is like getting cut with a new razor (very sharp) doesn't hurt much when it occur's, and being cut by an old razor(dull) hurt's alot worse as soon as you do it.

In the heat of a fight the adrenaline is flowing which will help to dull any pain, your body naturaly produce's pain killer's when it is injured and it may take a few minute's or until you see the injury for it to have an effect on you physicaly as far as the pain, depending on how bad the cut the blood loss might get you before the pain does.

If you cut a muscle that will effect how well you can move, for instance if the tricep of the guy was cut clean across he more than likely would have trouble straightening his arm up and down would seperate the fiber evidently it didn't effect him moving his arm much, or like hamstringing some one the leg will not stay straight and they can't stand up, i think it is the case with De Jarnac(MHO) we know he did something to the back of his opponent's leg and he couldn't stand.

The Human body is an amazing machine it can take alot of punishment and still function, i have read alot of account's of mountaneering accident's were people survived and walked off a 20,000 foot peak with broken leg's and such, even the guy about 6-8 month's ago who cut off his own hand with a leathermen, and rappeled and walked out like 4 mile's or something.

I do think some of this is directly related to some people's will to survive, and fight even though they are injured.

There is totaly diffrent mentality in some people to survive and fight no matter what.


Jeff

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I think this kind of ties into your fear ?. When you spar and get hit with a good shot, there is some form of a pain penalty invovled, but you should also take a second or two and think about the actual injury you would have sustained.

Ask yourself(honestly) some simple questions, How much damage could have been caused, what would my reaction to this damage be, could I continue to fight, would I continue to fight with this damage, etc... then maybe visualize the blood, gore etc and think about how you might react.

This thought process might also help to "keep it real" and clear up any fogginess about this being some kind of sword tag exercise.

I think also I am going to ask my fellow members if they want to introduce some type of punishment for a loss, like push-ups or something. It might help reinforce the negativity of being hit? Anybody out there do something like this?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Aaron <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

When I was I kid I had bike accident that almost completely cut through my calf muscle. I recall trying to get up and finding that the wouldn't (obviously) support any weight and that cut muscle looks kind of like hamburger. But...I did NOT feel any pain, dizziness or panic. Just the loss of function. So, I crawled over to someones house and asked for help, but the point is that just like yer bouncer, there really wasn't any shock that one would assume would come with a deep cut. I recall Silver talking of guys getting stuck with rapiers who later died of their wounds, but did just fine during the combat after sustaining those injuries.

OTOH, I have seen people with really minor injuries lose it. I wonder what triggers that loss of control since, it doesn't seem to be based solely on the severity of the injury?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Aaron

I think at time's when we stop after one hit and reset it is a bad idea, i think we need to quickly and honestly say to ourselve's ok it was a light tip cut and keep going and then when everything is over we can discuss what hit occured and where and how much force, we tend to do that around here and there are time's when i took 2 light hit's and my opponent had no idea he even hit me that many time's, or as John has in the ARMA sparring method time on target for a slash, did they have time to slash, also location a hit to the head is definately going to be debilitating.


This does go along with my other question and John's article(core assumption's) also in how we train and try to "Keep it real", lol, i do think these are thing's we need to think about and discuss in our endeavor to resurect this as a lost form of of self defense, alot of the unarmed and dagger thing's are applicable to modern self defense.

I have a warped mind.


Jeff

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jeff, Jaron

Jeff-not talking about light hits, we disregard those as well. I am talking a meaty edge on strike- a thumper- I also agree that light hits should be ignored. When good solid contact is made or two hits or three or whatever maybe we should be taking some time to think through it- maybe we will give it a try for a couple weeks and report back to you on it-

Jaron, Yah, that's pretty much what I mean you have got to wonder how some of these fighters mentally prepped, or how they reacted after a good hit- with how life was back then, I am sure most of them would have been used to gore and the like as well as pain. Makes you stop and say hmmmmm-

[JeffGentry]

Hey Aaron

Jeff-not talking about light hits, we disregard those as well. I am talking a meaty edge on strike- a thumper- I also agree that light hits should be ignored. When good solid contact is made or two hits or three or whatever maybe we should be taking some time to think through it- maybe we will give it a try for a couple weeks and report back to you on it-

I agree with you on this if we are in the middle of a fight i don't think we should stop until one or both disengage and reset or unless the hit ringer's there bell and they fail to strike or gaurd finish them off and then figure out the hit's and possible outcome's of all hit's even the light one's.

Like i said i do think some of it is a mental strength that help's some keeping going, call it a will to live or whatever, like Jaron said some people freak out over a minor injury those probably were the kind of people Lichty meant by this "If you are fearful, never learn any art of fighting" - Master Liechtenauer, c.1389 and that would make sense in my mind.

These are the kind of thing's that i think were meant by the master's to mentaly prepare us for combat, and the need to fight on even when we are injured because it will more than likely happen no matter how good we become, it is a matter of statistic's the more we fight the better our odd's of getting hurt(IMO).



Jeff

[Jared L. Cass]

Very interesting account, Aaron! If I read you right, sounds like the cut was along the "grain" of the bouncers muscle. So he still had mobility of the arm. Now Jaron's child hood injury , again if I read it right, was across the "grain" of the muscle...he again felt no pain, but he lost the use of that limb to work correctly.

This might be something to really think about for sparring. Maybe if the cut is along the muscle (with the "grain"), we keep going till a diffinitive hit is made. But, if the cut is across the lay of the muscle (cross "grain"), we stop the bout because if it were a real wound, that limb would be useless, and being so wounded, the fight is really over...just a matter of miliseconds to take advantage of such a crippled adversary.

For those with a better grasp of physiology, what do you think?

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

ps:, Aaron, if it weren't for this damned ice storm, I would have made the drive to Appleton today! Well, in two weeks if the weather cooperates, I'll try again <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

The cut on my calf was horizontal (i.e. across the muscle grain). The odd thing was that it didn't hurt at all (not due to any particular mind set on my part, the pain just wasn't there) despite the loss of function. One wonders if for instance, you get cut across the grain on your arm and you don't have major arterial bleeding, if you couldn't just shift to the other arm and keep going. Wounds of kind of funny in that you never really know how they effect people (or even how the same wound on different days would effect the same person). So how do we replicate this in training. Do we count a good schnitt slice as a fight winner or let the guy fight on without using the cut part?

[TimSheetz]

HI Jeff,

I agree, if it was light then the fight needs to continue. As a general rule, if the hit didn't change their direction or move their limb to some degree then it was too light. I think to that draw cuts are important but I only really try to get them across good surfaces, preferably the throat.

I think the reason that so much medieval knife work is thrusting may suggest what they thought of the whole carve the target up knife fight.

The bouncer in the story would probably have had a different reponse if they had bothered to stab him through the shoulder joint.

Tim

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jaron, That is pretty much the way this guy was, he did have use of his arm (somewhat) though. I witnessed him using it when he was filling out some paperwork. There really was not as much blood as I thought there would be either.

I thought the key to this story though was the fact that the guy never felt the blow at all. He had no idea he was cut, never felt the pressure or the slice. It was a slice or slash cut for sure, and he especially didn't realize how serious it was.

How do we mimick this in a fight, I have thought about this for a few days now, and I think it really does not matter. The point is that the hit was made. Regardless of how the other guy reacts is kind of moot. I guess the only thing to consider is are you going to stop the bout after that first good hit or not?

It is important as Tim had said to take notice of the seriousness of what just happened and how grevious the injury could be, and what effects it might have, but I think the point is that you were able to hit the other guy in that manner. How the reciver would have reacted is open to too many variables to mimick. (I think of the SCA's one knee rule)

Jared- That ice storm was hellasious, I hope to see you soon! Aaron

[John_Clements]

Hi guys,
As you all likely know, wounds are one of my major areas of research and I am publishing a large volume of material on the subject this year. To add to what's already been said, I willl say there is a very good reason that fighting men trained to strike forecfully, you needed to deblitate or incapcitate your opponent quickly before he did the same to you, because a wounded man can keep fighting effectively (even when his wounds are lethal). So, they just could not take the chance. In our free-play we thus stress those elements of placement, intent, contact, and time on target that reflect this.

JC

[Jaron Bernstein]

"I think of the SCA's one knee rule"

I don't think a cut leg muscle like that could bear weight, even on one knee (I know I couldn't). But if your guy had an arming sword in the other uninjured)hand, I would wager that he could fight just fine. Even if he bled out later.

John C., <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Looking forward to hosting you in April. What other books do your have forthcoming? Any planned publishing dates?

[John_Clements]

Yeah, the physiology of legs wounds is such that either you can stand or you can't and if you can't, you can't really fight, let alone kneel. I have a large amoun of documentatin on this which is very interesting. It will be in one of my books.

I have no dates set yet. They'll be done when they are done.
Looking forward to seeing you all.

JC