Fear

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeanry

Actualy i have been investigating the full contact karate mitt's, the one's made of EVA foam with the open palm, and some headgear.

Me and Jaron are moving in the direction of pretty realistic training when we do unarmed and dagger, we realy do go at it in an unstructured way, were most anything can happen we try to use the technique's we know when the oppertunity present's itself and it often does, and we are learning to recognize those oppertunities, Jaron see's them more often then i do for the simple fact he train's in another martial art, i do throw thing's at him that he doesn't expect, the last practice we had i used a supplex on him and it caught him off gaurd although i was slow on the follow up and he ended up choking me to tap out, lol, it was educational though, we were both sucking wind we were going at so hard though and that is a good thing.


I need to buy a video camera, i would like to get the input of someother's of our training.


Jeff

[J.Amiel_Angeles]

Don't tell my school, but in the EMA I practice in, a Japanese kenjutsu ryu, I have no fear of getting hurt when 'sparring'. Of course this is because there is no sparring and all that you worry about is forgetting stuff or not doing it form-function right according to your sensei or sempai. Who will not always explain things either. Heh.

[Jared L. Cass]

Hi Jeff, you wrote "Actualy i have been investigating the full contact karate mitt's, the one's made of EVA foam with the open palm,"

I would recomend these gloves (a quick googled link is posted below). They have enoufgh padding to go all out and not injure your partner overly much (though I've still been knocked out for a few seconds by an extremely well delivered chop across the base of my neck). The best quality about them though is the easy of using your fingers to grab, pull hair, ect. All the things you need for good all out grappling. An added benifit is that they aren't too bulky, so they don't affect your technique too much (they still do of course, like all sparring gloves, but I find these the best). No head gear should be needed...though you'll want to guard your nose a good bit as they can and will give one nice bloody nose.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/martialartsequip/cobchopsparg.html

IMO, avoid the karate/taikwondo mittem like sparring gloves. You can't grab worth a damn with them.

Hope this is of some use to you. Oh, yeah...I should mention you can still handle a dagger or other weapon real easly with them. Another high point.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jared

those look much better than the Karate mitten type, i like the half finger on those one's you showed, the open palm was the reason i wanted them so we can strike a little more in our grappling/dagger and still be able to grab and do throw's and such, i think it will change the whole nature of what we are doing if we unexpectedly get hit and then grabbed or grabbed then hit, it will make you have to continue even though you got your bell rung hopefuly the group will go along with it, i know at least one in our group won't like it at all, we'll see how the girl's react I may be surprised, they may just love this, lol.

We'll see what happen's and how they react it should be interesting at the least.

Hey Aaron if nothing else in April me and you can use them, i'll probably get my but whipped, lol.

Jeff

[JeanryChandler]

I need to buy a video camera, i would like to get the input of someother's of our training.

I highly reccomend recording your sparring bouts. You can get feedback from others, but perhaps even more importantly you can observe your own actions in a fight and see what you are doing right and wrong. It really has helped us a lot, you'll be amazed how different what you are really doing sometimes can be from what you thought you were doing.



Another general rule on "keeping it real", it's a really good idea to mix up your sparring partners, invite EMA or other types of practitioners to spar, get new people in from other groups, visitors, etc. I was thinking of this friday, we did some sparrring with a friend visiting from Czech republic. I noticed everybody was fighting with much more intensity than usual.

Sparring with the same person over and over can help you sharpen your technique and learn nuances, but it can also get your stale, fighting in predictable ways, and most relevant to this thread, it can get you to think of sparring as a routine. Bringing in new blood as often as possible really helps a lot IMHO.

Jeanry

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeanry

Another general rule on "keeping it real", it's a really good idea to mix up your sparring partners, invite EMA or other types of practitioners to spar, get new people in from other groups, visitors, etc. I was thinking of this friday, we did some sparrring with a friend visiting from Czech republic. I noticed everybody was fighting with much more intensity than usual.

I totaly agree i like to spar with diffrent people, I want to spar with the girl who own's the school we are using (it is a haidong Gumdo: Korean sword art) her appendix burst awhile back though so she can't spar right now, i also want to spar with JC, i know he will whip me, it will realy show me were i am weak and that's fine with me, unarmed i would spar with just about anyone as long as after they don't get mad, i have seen people who get beat or even win and not look all that great doing it get mad and take it as blow to there ego's, i think we need to keep it friendly when we spar.

I highly reccomend recording your sparring bouts. You can get feedback from others, but perhaps even more importantly you can observe your own actions in a fight and see what you are doing right and wrong. It really has helped us a lot, you'll be amazed how different what you are really doing sometimes can be from what you thought you were doing

I rode bull's for 6yrs.(you want to talk adrenaline,lol) we did tape at the practice pen alot, and it is a great training tool imediate feed back on what happened, It happen's so fast and you don't alway's know what happened it is the same with this.

Jeff

[TimSheetz]

Hi All,

Looks like a good discussion - don't have time to read it all, but here is a way to help increase the "fear" or at least the healthier response to a "school-house" mentality..

I have halted sparring activity and pulled everyone in for a quick talk. It focused on two things - one was punishment (by way of pushups) for double kills - and the other was a moment of reflection and imagining that these sparring weapons "are steel". Think of what happens to you. Think of the horrible minutes of misery you would likely suffer if this were for real and you were dimembered or stabbed.

This moment of reflection does help. If they have the right attitude it helps a lot.

"Imagination is a training multiplier."

I have found that it is harder to find people NOT SCARED of sparring than finding people who are scared of it. Of course, their fear seldom ever helps... in fact it got used to terrorize them into inaction or poor action. It was a real training struggle to condition this out of them, and I was marginally successful at it.

Peace,

Tim

[JeffGentry]

hey Tim

in fact it got used to terrorize them into inaction or poor action. It was a real training struggle to condition this out of them, and I was marginally successful at it.

This is what i am talking about Tim you being in the Military know how they train and fear cannot be a factor or you get killed i am wondering how we can use this to our advantage and learn to deal with it.

I would recomend these gloves (a quick googled link is posted below). They have enoufgh padding to go all out and not injure your partner overly much (though I've still been knocked out for a few seconds by an extremely well delivered chop across the base of my neck).

I take it from this you have used these glove's, i am wondering do they have enough padding to safely strike to the face i looked at some in our Martial art's school store alst night and they looked more like an MMA type glove, they would work the owner is looking for someother's with a bit more padding, we'll see i guess.

Jeff

Jeff

[Jared L. Cass]

Hi, you wrote/asked:

"I take it from this you have used these glove's, i am wondering do they have enough padding to safely strike to the face i looked at some in our Martial art's school store alst night and they looked more like an MMA type glove, they would work the owner is looking for someother's with a bit more padding, we'll see i guess"

Yes, they are very well padded and you can safely clock your partner across the face <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> They still jiggle the brain pan a good bit (a good hit will make you see stars) and can and will smoosh a nose, but on a scale of 1-10 for safety, I give them a 9 as compaired to probably a 7 for the typical closed cell foam mitten type taikwondo/karate ones, and a 3 for the "mma" type.

These "cobra chop" open finger gloves have a different type of padding (approx 1 and 1/4-1/2 inches) than those mentioned above. It's softer and "gives" more...maybe that's why they seem to disssipate the energy of a punch better. They are an old style design, but can't be beat IMO. Size XL are a bit big for me (just a wee wee bit) and unless you've got real small hands, it's a good size to pick up. A good number of the guys I train with are alot bigger than me and the XL size is a little tight for them, but still very servicable.

Also, you should be able to find a better price than that listed in the previous link. Just google or search for "cobra chop sparring gloves" and you should be able to shop around for a better deal. Mine were made by "kim paciffic".

If you decide to pick some up, I would be willing to bet that you would be very pleased.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[TimSheetz]

HI Jeff,

You wrote: This is what i am talking about Tim you being in the Military know how they train and fear cannot be a factor or you get killed i am wondering how we can use this to our advantage and learn to deal with it.

Sadly, I have been disappointed on numerous occaisions on this topic. It has even come to the point where I am yelling at them to do something - anything beside cowering and retreating. It makes you wonder why would you even be interested in learning the sword... I mean the general idea of what you do with them is not really all that mysterious, so why would one act all shocked and frightened?

The only recourse for them is to expose them to it enough so they have a chance to change their habits - change their response from strictly flight to allow the option of fight in there somewhere.

Using the fear of being hit can be a good way to help people's footwork if they seem to be dragging their feet - maybe cause they never were sportif growing up... I take away all their weapons then attack their legs with a sparring sword. They 'win' by successfully closing and grasping my wrist or ricasso, I win by hitting them. It is truly amazing how much they learn in such a short period of time. They learn to move quite quickly as a matter of fact. Truly that which hurts, teaches. Of course some restraint on the part of the sword wielder is necessary as the deck is fully stacked. The restraint is along these lines: "Control, but no mercy". They have to get used to moving sensibly under pretty severe negative stimuli. This particular technique has worked very well indeed.

Another is desensitizing them to closing actions - where they do the unthinking sword clutch when you close and grasp the ricasso. In a panic they lock up. Only solution there is to close with them over and over until they realize they need to do something else. Some folks learn after 5 times, some it takes multiple sessions.

Peace,

Tim

[Gene Tausk]

This is a great discussion topic, but as raised earlier, I think we need to define about what it is we are talking.

When we say "fear," I don't think that we are talking about (and I may be wrong on this) full-scale panic. I believe the subject is: when we spar, do we feel an adrenaline rush similar, but to a lesser frequency, that we would feel in a full-scale "flight or fight" situation.

Human beings are wired to have extreme reactions under stress. Evolutionary psychologists generally agree there are four "primal" urges that can drive humans to what is commony called the "flight or fight" response that produces massive amounts of adrenaline and other hormones: (1) fighting; (2) fleeing; (3) feeding, and (4) er...making babies. These urges are hard-wired into our brains and nervous systems for obvious reasons. Without the ability to tap into the adrenaline reflex for these situations, the human race would have died out a long time ago on the evolutionary ladder. Can you imagine the following:

100,000 years ago. Somewhere in Europe. Cro-magnon man and son are talking:

Son: Dad, there's a big old saber tooth tiger that is looking at us.

Dad: Not to worry son, he's probably bored.

Son: But dad, he's starting to run towards us. And look, he's brought a few friends with him.

Dad: No problems, son. Thery're probably coming over just to talk.

Son: But dad! The're starting to really run fast and growl and roar.

Dad: Calm down, son. You won't live long if you worry like that. Let's just talk to them....

(remainder better left to the imagination)

In the context of sparring, I think the question is: are we feeling the adrenaline surge when we spar and, are we able to channel this energy into the "fight" response, but at the same time using the higher centers of our brain which is developed by martial arts training? If the answer to the first part is "no," then I respectfully suggest that some modifications to training might be in order. There has to be a reaction, some kind of visceral reaction, to sparring. There has to be some element of "danger" there. As to the second part, that is why we train. To combine our bodies innate physiological abilities with the higher centers of our brain so we move and act with purpose and intent, not just flail about.

You wrote:

"The only recourse for them is to expose them to it enough so they have a chance to change their habits - change their response from strictly flight to allow the option of fight in there somewhere."

Couldn't agree more. After all, what's the point if not to develop these skills? A person does not need any training to know how to flail about without skill.

---------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene

[Jack Lynn]

Actually, I have found that, in high pressure situations, emotions are almost switched off. When I debate in front of an audience, when I spar with friends (either with swords or unarmed), even when I get on a roller coaster. I often find that, after a paticularly chaotic practic with wasters or tough debate, I have only a very obscure memory of the proceedings. I find that, for some reason, I often do my best work in this odd state. This memory distortion doesn't seem to happen during unarmed sparing, no matter how tough it is.

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's



Jack

Actually, I have found that, in high pressure situations, emotions are almost switched off. When I debate in front of an audience, when I spar with friends (either with swords or unarmed), even when I get on a roller coaster. I often find that, after a paticularly chaotic practic with wasters or tough debate, I have only a very obscure memory of the proceedings. I find that, for some reason, I often do my best work in this odd state. This memory distortion doesn't seem to happen during unarmed sparing, no matter how tough it is.

This is what alot of athlete's refer to as being in the zone, here is where i get mystical, i have done quit abit of reading on this type of thing and have quit abit of actual experience in "The zone", i was in the Martine infantry, Wpns Co 2/7, when the Irqi's started shooting i wasn't afraid i was totaly focused on my what i was trianed to do and just did it, I know when i was riding bull's my best ride's are totaly clear in my memory and at the time i didn't hear the crowd, didn't feel anything except the bull moving under me and it was like i knew exactly what he would do, now when this was broken is when i would get tossed off, it is the same Kayaking when i drop into a rapid it is total focus and i can feel eveything the water is doing to the boat, so is this just a result of training, or the result of having been in enough situation's that were dangerous enough to bring on the fight or flight and learning to deal with it, and how can we train as martial artist for this, so we can get this type of focus.

Jeff

[John_Clements]

Hi

Here's my thought: It would not be inaccurate to postulate that the most people's conceptions of personal armed combat in the Middle Ages and Renaissance is that it was employed something like what they have seen in movies and television, various reenactment societies, and perhaps sport-fencing. The historical record suggests it was something very different. And of course, that difference is reflected in what ARMA does and what is on our website. Personal armed combat was quick, vicious, and no no-nonsense with the emotional content of the participants being a significant factor. The whole point of training in systematic self-defense skills was so that you controlled yourself, and your emotions, to thereby respond effectively under sudden conditions of violent assault.

There's just no way to "train as if you are afraid" instead, you train to "not be afraid" in the real thing. Make sense?

JC

[JeffGentry]

Hey John

There's just no way to "train as if you are afraid" instead, you train to "not be afraid" in the real thing. Make sense?

Actualy that make's sense to me.


Jeff