an interesting observation

[JeffGentry]

Hello folk's

Well as some of you know myself and Jaron from Colubus ARMA have been going at the unarmed hard here lately, well last night we were doing some dagger against unarmed, i happened to notice that Jaron was stepping in to grab my weapon hand/arm and it put his back somewhat to me so i figured what the heck and wrapped my knife hand around his waisted and threw him down and nearly every time i landed on top and still had my knife, which was not a good thing.


any thought's on how to deal with this good bad indiffrent?


Jeff

[noah gross]

Jeff,
one point that comes to mind is that, you are reading Jarons move early on and therfore can counter his "grab" to your knife hand.
perhaps Jaron should work on not making this counter move obvious.
if this a set attack and response then it changes the whole thing, because you know ahead of time what he is doing.

one way of not making the "grabb" obvious is, by not grabbing.
by this i mean that the defender should move placing his body
out of the daggers path and position his forearm to intercept / recieve your arm on it, the "grabb" should be a result of this action, and not an intended grab.
secondly, while Jaron does all this, he should have a second hand, if he does he may consider using it to deliver a shot to you face or body.
the effect of this shot will be to stop your flow or rythem and provide the window of opportunity needed for taking control of your arm and moving on too his next action.
he regains the vor this way.
the strike can be a punch, open fist or for arm.
i hope i understood you correctly.
the next stage would be to stifel your throw early on.

Noah Gross.
the lone armateer in Israel.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Noah

if he does he may consider using it to deliver a shot to you face or body

No this isn't anything set, it is just the result of him trying to gain control of my arm.

I am looking at getting some padded grappling/sparring glove's, i am not a big striker, i am seeing alot of situation's lately were i could block then strike and grab the arm or wrist as opposed to trying to just block and then trying to grab his arm or wrist, i think striking does have it's place, and i think it will add another dynamic to this art, having to be aware that you will get hit, i think it will introduce a whole new mind set at least for me it will.


Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Good idea. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Will try it out this sunday in class. Don't you have more ARMAteers b'eretz yet? I thought you mentioned having some people from your ninpo days getting into it?

Todah Rabah,
Jaron

[noah gross]

Jaron,
no Arma members yet.
i do have one training partner who was a ninpo student of mine, and am glad to say that for the past couple of months i have been training with a group i found that uses paded swords for sparing.
on the other hand they use anything that works and are less concerned with being historical.

Noah.

[Jared L. Cass]

HI Jeff, you wrote:

"i am seeing alot of situation's lately were i could block then strike and grab the arm or wrist as opposed to trying to just block and then trying to grab his arm or wrist,"

Right on. Also, IMO (I'm going on abit of a tangent here) one of the most over looked aspects of grappling in a combat situation is where many expect to just grapple and have the techniques work. This is true to an extent (especially for big strong guys), but for many of us (like me, the little/lightweight guys) to be able to throw, set up a choke, position for a bone break, ect... there is really no "easy" way other than to use strikes as a set up for the "finishing" techniques. If that makes sense <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

It seems to be an aspect that many (nobody in particular and not you Jeff, I'm generalizing here) WMA practitioners don't consider. The most obvious places where this is evident is when practicing a technique in a "class room" step by step setting. Once people have the grappling movements/footwork down and the opponent starts to offer real resistance, somebody almost always says "this doesn't work. He's too strong and really fighting having his arm put in this position" Why? Because the various movements are expected.

So then I usually say, let's try this again" and punch them in the face or grab their jewels and get the technique to work. Usually they are then pretty supprised, and they learn that it's not just a matter of (example) "block then grab". In reality, it's block, punch/gouge/ or squeeze (or all of the above). For the desired results to happen.

Again just MO and directed at nobody in particular, grappling should ALWAYS be practiced with strikes/head butts/knees to the groin/ect in order for grappling techniques to be used effectivly. Hope all this makes sense.

To sum it up in one sentance: "Don't expect to simply grapple and finish one's opponent without hitting them first and taking their attention elsewhere."

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jared

To sum it up in one sentance: "Don't expect to simply grapple and finish one's opponent without hitting them first and taking their attention elsewhere."

Well i think that even in the Ren. martial art's(HEMAC) they probably did the same thing even though it isn't realy discussed much in the manuel's, if they tried to write everything in the mauel's they did in combat it would take year's to read it little lone write it, I think(IMO) they wrote the major aspect's of technique's down because something like poke him in the eye then throw him was something they generaly did anyway in our society it isn't polite to poke your opponent in the eye in a fight, which i find pretty ironic, punch him in the mouth but don't poke him in the eye? seem's like a strange way to think to me.

Anyway me and Jaron are starting to go in the direction of, this is happenig very fast and you have to be ready to hit him and then break'em down shotgun style, and you had better be ready to be hit and still stick to your game plan in order to be the one who walk's away, Maybe not without injury at least you'll walk away though.


Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

"no Arma members yet.
i do have one training partner who was a ninpo student of mine, and am glad to say that for the past couple of months i have been training with a group i found that uses paded swords for sparing.
on the other hand they use anything that works and are less concerned with being historical."

Why do they use swords at all then? Not to knock pragamatism (a wonderful thing if there ever was one), but the sword isn't exactly a common item these days, so hearing of it being studied outside the historical context sounds odd.

J.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Jay Vail]

The debate about whether to strike first then wrestle, or simply to respond with wrestling is an ongoing discussion in self-defense circles. Hoch Hockheim and Payton Quinn are among the main advocates of the strike first school. There is nothing wrong with this approach to combat. It certainly works and will save your life in a tough spot.

But to argue, especially based on free sparring in the training hall, that wrestling first does not work fails to take into account the reality of combat. Real fights and free sparring have much in common. But they differ in one critical respect. If you’ve never been in a real fight or have never seen one go down you will not appreciate the difference.

Real fights, real attacks always lead with a fully committed blow. This is a full force, no nonesense blow that is intended to land and do harm. I have never seen one preceeded by a fake. It is launched and the attacker’s full power and momentum are behind it. That power, and the fact the attack comes as a surprise, are what makes such street attacks so devastating. To give you an example, you never see jabs precede the cross. You only see the cross. If you think this is wrong, I suggest you go to e-budo.com’s combatives forum, where Darren Lauer has posted a number of videos which have captured the reality of street fights. Only in the standup challenge matches will you see anything that resembles free sparring, with the fully committed blow preceded by setup like jabs and fakes.

In contrast, in free sparring you virtually never see committed blows as the first one made. Free sparring resembles a duel more than it does street combat. The fighters are cautious, because they fully appreciate the harm that each can do to the other and what counters the opponent is likely to employ. They generally (tho not always) do not launch committed attacks, but precede the main attack with probes and misdirections intended to divert the enemy’s attention so that distance can be safely crossed and any potential counter foiled.

The difference in the combat environment has serious implications for the types of techniques one can employ. The dagger defenses depicted in the medieval manuals are designed to deal with the problem of street combat and the committed attack, not the more cautious duelling environment. The weakness of the committed attack lies in its greatest advantage -- its fully committed nature. If the defender can avoid being hit, he has a window of opportunity to apply his defense. It is into that window that one inserts a wrestling defense because typically, the attacker has opened himself up for the counter by the extended nature of his attack.

Mechanically, the committed attack involves the extension of an arm. An extended arm is a vulnerable arm. The elbow joint especially is exposed to harm and can be easily attacked. Moreover, the committed attacker usually has forward momentum that can be exploited by the wrestler. In contrast, in free sparring, the attacker will not offer an extended arm nor will he normally have the same sort of forward momentum.

The failure to understand these different dynamics can seriously undermine your study of martial arts and your training. Anyone interested in serious self defense must be familiar with the realities of real combat. This doesn’t mean that you should pick fights yourself, but seek out those who have had this nasty experience and learn from them what sorts of situations you are likely to face. Then design your training program accordingly.

[Shane Smith]

I have found that a good sound strike often takes an opponents focus just long enough for me to position him in a way that isn't to his advantage <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[David Craig]

Jay,

I think you are making an important series of points here, that are true not just for dagger/unarmed, but apply to combat with other weapons as well. When we spar it is much more reminiscent of a duel than a battlefield situation -- which leads to more feinting, hesitation, etc. Plus the conditions are controlled which makes it even more duel-like in nature. However, you also say:

The dagger defenses depicted in the medieval manuals are designed to deal with the problem of street combat and the committed attack, not the more cautious duelling environment.

I don't think you can say that as a definitive statement. The dagger fighting in some of those treatises -- for example Talhoffer -- is clearly depicted in a dueling environment, in the ring. So at least from appearance, those techniques were meant to be used for duels.

David Craig

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jay

Real fights, real attacks always lead with a fully committed blow. This is a full force, no nonesense blow that is intended to land and do harm

This is my point, you ever tried to catch the arm of some one throwing this type of blow, i know i am not that fast.

I suggest you go to e-budo.com’s combatives forum, where Darren Lauer has posted a number of videos which have captured the reality of street fights.

I have had my butt whipped once or twice in "street fight's", that is pretty much why i don't go to bar's anymore had enough of drunk's stupidity, i did check out the video's awhile back.

In contrast, in free sparring you virtually never see committed blows as the first one made

I throw committed blow's for the simply reason that if we expect this stuff to work we have to use committed blow's or we are fooling ourselve's by half ass throwing a fake blow and just standing there waiting for the opposition to do the "technique".

The difference in the combat environment has serious implications for the types of techniques one can employ.

The diffrence in combat and sparring is that most people don't throw committed blow's, that is why i posted this question, if you stop my dagger it doesn't mean you stopped me i throw my partner to the ground and then stab him, if he were to stop my arm and then elbow me in the face the dynamic and mind set of the opponent has just changed.

Anyone interested in serious self defense must be familiar with the realities of real combat

As for this i am more familiar with the reality of combat than most i spent six year's in the Marine's and was in desert storm, my unit breached the mine field's so we were some of the first unit's to see action we took quit a bit of artilary and small arm's fire(weapon's company 2nd battalion 7th Marine regiment, if yea care to do some checking), I have seen bodie's of dead men blown in half or with the skin completly burned off there back's, so i am pretty sure i am familiar with real combat.

The debate about whether to strike first then wrestle, or simply to respond with wrestling is an ongoing discussion in self-defense circles. Hoch Hockheim and Payton Quinn are among the main advocates of the strike first school. There is nothing wrong with this approach to combat. It certainly works and will save your life in a tough spot.

What i am saying is that it may be a good idea if you go in for something and it doesn't seem to be working that it might be a good idea to hit the S.O.B and then continue, i don't think it is a question of one way or the other it is dictated by the situation and opponent, IMHO.

i am no "expert" though these are just My opinion's.


Jeff

[David Craig]

This is my point, you ever tried to catch the arm of some one throwing this type of blow, i know i am not that fast.

Jeff,

This is a good point. And that's assuming someone even has a chance to try a defense at all. In a real combat situation, it is quite possible that someone is going to stick a knife in you before you even know it is coming.

It is also useful to keep in mind that knife defense in a medieval/renaissance setting faced a different set of conditions than we do now. Violence was much more widespread &amp; acceptable in daily life, and most people carried weapons as a matter of course. In a time when almost everyone carried a knife or dagger, it would be far more likely that you might end up fighting someone that actually knew what they were doing than it is today. It is quite possible that people back then might have assumed that any opponent would be experienced with a knife, and therefore been more inclined to feint or hesitate, rather than immediately launch a committed attack.

There is also the possibility that many of the techniques we see in the treatises take into account the presence of heavy clothing or armor, which would make slashes much less effective and almost mandate the use of strong stabbing strikes and thrusts. A knife fight between two guys in tshirts is alot different than one in which they have on leather jackets and gloves, let alone anything heavier.

David Craig

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

This is a good point. And that's assuming someone even has a chance to try a defense at all. In a real combat situation, it is quite possible that someone is going to stick a knife in you before you even know it is coming.

Well that's my method of thinking if your attacked you may not see it coming until your hit with a flurry of blow's, just like in the video's on e-budo, and you don't have time for too much of a defense, unless you can keep your wit's about you and do something to execute some sort of technique whether it be a punch a throw whatever i think you have to do something to regain the vor and get out of the nach, the good german word indes come's to mind.


Jeff

[Jay Vail]

Hey yourself, Jeff.

Sounds like you know what the score is. I didn’t mean my post to be a criticism of anyone. I am just concerned that people get into the wrong training mode because of their over reliance on free sparring as the test of techniques. Some techniques work well in the duelling environment of free sparring, others less well. I have often, in other MA circles, heard perfectly valid techniques derided because they don’t work well in free sparring. Basic karate is one of those to suffer. Basic karate is designed for self defense and the sudden attack, not for free sparring. Same with combat judo/jujutsu (the Japanese version).

you ever tried to catch the arm of some one throwing this type of blow, i know i am not that fast.

Well, it can be done. I am sure you could do this. I may be able to help you with it. Perhaps if we’re together at a gathering we can discuss this problem. You don’t have to be a 12th degree black belt soke grandmaster founder of your own style/ryu to make this interception/grab work. It’s very simple, really.

I throw committed blow's for the simply reason that if we expect this stuff to work we have to use committed blow's or we are fooling ourselve's by half ass throwing a fake blow and just standing there waiting for the opposition to do the "technique".

Excellent.

As for this i am more familiar with the reality of combat than most i spent six year's in the Marine's and was in desert storm, my unit breached the mine field's so we were some of the first unit's to see action we took quit a bit of artilary and small arm's fire(weapon's company 2nd battalion 7th Marine regiment, if yea care to do some checking), I have seen bodie's of dead men blown in half or with the skin completly burned off there back's, so i am pretty sure i am familiar with real combat.

You have my sincere respect.

Yours, <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

JV