Left Side?

[J.Amiel_Angeles]

This, I assume, is the monumentally stupid question of a newbie, but I have just recently purchased the two commercial translations of Sigmund Ringeck and... Um, granted that you're supposed to strike from your strong side (right to left for a right-handed person) but then... what if you're fighting a left-handed person? Are there really no hits from your weak side? Are all duels then going to start with a symmetric exchange from the right side?

[Randall Pleasant]

You do indeed throw blows from your weak side. Ringeck only says to throw your -first- blow from your strong side. The reason being is that in any resulting bind your hands are not crossed, thus you are able to bind strongly and work against your adversary with the Winding techniques that Ringeck goes on to discuss. If you entered into a bind on your weak side then you hands would be cross, thus you would be weak. The Goliath document has two images (the 3rd & 4th) that show what can happen when you are strongly countered on your weak side. A cut from the weak side is often thrown as a follow up to a cut from the strong side.

Hope that helps. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[J.Amiel_Angeles]

Yes, but how does this relate to left-handedness. What if your opponent is left-handed? Or even if somebody just decided to switch sides in the attack? Wouldn't that give undue advantage to him if it seems as if all the openings I saw in Ringeck started with this assumption of right to left?

[TimSheetz]

If have sparred left handers and never noticed the difference from right handers. Whether this is just from good basics and principles on my part or a lack of exploiting it on their part I do not know.

Tim

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Depends, remember how quick, and forceful, things are happening. If your talking about a feint that is a seperate matter, but to switch sides half-way through a technique simply will be almost impossible to pull off.

If you are talking about switching prior to throwing something then using range I just stay out of the way and switch myself or attack you quickly why you are doing all this switching.

How much freeplay or sparring have you done? Twitching is probably the fastest and most effective way to attack the diffrent sides.

[TimSheetz]

Hi Aaron,

Are you asking me or J.Amiel?

If me, I have sparred quite a bit. By telling you "I have not noticed" I mean that it hasn't apparently given them any advantages. Based on results, if you fence well, which hand you have in front of the other on the grip doesn't really matter.

I am right handed. I can attack from the left or right and so can they. The force I can generate from left or right is very high, as it would be for them, so the advantages they receive are limited.

Does it affect the leverage of certain moves? Sure, but not enough to really be a big factor.

I think it would make a MUCH LARGER difference for the left hander using a sword and SHIELD. This changes the typical openings much more significantly than for a long sword.

[philippewillaume]

this is what ringeck says:

Das ist der text von vil gu°tter gemainer lere des langen schwerts.
Willtu kunst schowen, sich linck gen vnd recht mitt hawen. Vnd linck mitt rechtem, ist, das du starck gerst fechten.
Glosa.
Merck, das ist die erst lere des (12 r )langes schwertz; das du die hew von bayden sytten recht solt lernen hawen, ist, das du annders starck vnd gerecht fechten wilt. Das vernym allso: wenn du wilt howen von der rechten sytten, so sich, das dein lincker fu°ß vor stee. Häustu dann den ober haw von der rechten sytten, so folg dem haw nach mitt dem rechten fu°ß. Tu°st du das nicht, so ist der how falsch vnd vngerecht, wann deinv (12 v ) rechte syten pleibpt dahinden. Darum ist der haw zu° kurtz vnd mag sein rechten gang vndersich zu der rechten anderen sytten vor dem lincken fu°ß nicht gehaben. Des glychen: wenn du hawst von der lyncken sytten vnd dem haw nicht nachfolgest mitt dem lincken fu°ß, so ist der haw och falsch. Darum so merck, von welcher sytten du haust, das du mitt dem selbigen fu° ß dem haw nachfolgest. So magstu mitt der sterck alle dein stuck gerecht trybenn. Vnnd also süllen alle andere hew (13 r )och gehawen werden

This is the text about many good common lessons of the long sword
To show the art, you&amp;#8217;re left going/towards and right with the strike. And the left with the right is how you fence strongly.
Glose
Mark, this is the first lesson of the long sword; that you are to learn how to strike correctly your blow from either side, so that you will fence with another/different force and precision. This goes like so: when you want to strike from the right side, be so that you left foot is in front. Strike you then with an oberhaw so your right foot follows after with the blow. Do not do this and the blow will be false and wrongful. As your right side stays behind it makes the blow shorter and it cannot have its rightful course under itself over the left foot (auf der anderer saiten von= over). On the same line when you strike from your left side and your left foot does not follow the blow, this is blow false as well. Hence mark, whatever the side you strike from, that you should follow the strike with the corresponding foot. So you may deliver your strike with strength and precision. And so all the other strike should be delivered.

It seems to me that ringeck clearly tell us lear to strike from both side. should we be left or right handed we need to lear how to strike from both side.

as Randal mentioned the stike from the the right if you are right handed is more of a specific topic.

Aber ain lere.
Höre, waß da schlecht ist, ficht nitt oben linck, so du recht bist, vnd ob du linck bist, im rechten auch ser hinckest.
Glosa.
Mörck, die lere trifft an zwu° personen: ainen lincken vnd ain grechten. - Das vernym also: wann du mitt zu° fechten zu° im kumpst, bistdu dann gerecht vnd mainest den man zu° schlachen, so haw den ersten haw nicht von der lingen sytten. Wann der ist schwach vnd magst damit nicht (14 v) wider gehalten, wann man dir starck daruff bindt. Darum, so haw der rechten sytten: so magst du starck am schwert mitt kunst arbayten, waß du wilt. - Des gelichen: bist du linck, so haw och nit von der rechtten, wenn die kunst ist gar wild ainem lincken ze triben von der rechten sytten. Des glich ist es och ainem rechten von der lincken sytten.

Yet another lesson
Hear what is bad; fight adversly up the left when you are from the right and if you are from the left, in the right you&amp;#8217;ll be impaired (hinken=limp) as well.
Glose
Mark: the lesson concerns two persons: a left-hander and a right-hander. This goes like so. When you come together for fencing in the fight, should you be right-handed and fancy striking the man. So do not strike the first blow from your left side. For it is feeble and may not thereafter stand against, when the man henceforth bind at you strong. Therefore strike from the right side, so may work hard, as you whish, with art at the sword. Equally if you are left handed, so strike not from the right, the art goes wild when a left-hander strikes from the right side. It is the same for a right handed from the left side.

IE if you are right handed you should strike you first blow from the right.
if you are left handed you should strike that same first blow from the left.
But again you can be right or left handed.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hey Tim, I meant J.Ameil-I am sure that you have sparred alot- anyway I agree that from the left or right you need to be equally capable but there is no question that you are much stronger from your strong side. I believe that the masters all mention this in most of the manuals- later, Aaron

[Ray Brunk]

Just to throw in a little slightly off input. Our study group has been beginning every session with the 10 basic cutting excercises +2 we have come up with. We execute these like a typical line drill moving ever forward to a predetermined distance, then return in the opposite direction executing from the left side. Our goal is to bring up our left side techniques so they are more comfortable and effective. We have found that our "weak side" is no longer so weak.
On topic: I have sparred very few left handers. One at the International gathering(his name escapes me right now) and 1 locally. I agree with Tim.I found that they had no advantage and my brain really didn't pick up on it until afterwards. Made no difference to me. With well balanced, continous flowing attacks... a left hander should be of no extra concern.

Ray
ARMA Upstate NY

[JeffGentry]

Hey J. Amiel

Yes, but how does this relate to left-handedness. What if your opponent is left-handed? Or even if somebody just decided to switch sides in the attack? Wouldn't that give undue advantage to him if it seems as if all the openings I saw in Ringeck started with this assumption of right to left?

Well i am gaining alot of experience fighting left hander's my main training partner Jaron is a left hander, occasionaly he will switch to the right hand grip, not often though, it is strange at first you do get used to it, I just fight him like i would a right hander knowing that his left side gaurd's are his strongest, i do at time's when learning a new technique make him switch to a right hand grip/stance so i can figure out what i am doing then he goes to his normal grip.

I will start at time's from a left side strike i just plan on it not being real strong more of a feint, or bind his from my left and wind out to my right or strong side asnd then go to work from there to the 4 opening's.


Jeff

[KatherineJohnson]

I fight everyone more or less the same. I suppose I find it easier to close to ringen am schwert against left handers as their most natural and common strike strike to my strong side and makes it easy to rush in at half sword with my point already threatening.

Closing against righties striking from their right I generally close with my point down and then have disengage my weapon from the bind in order to strike or thrust.


The way I see it, lefties have the same advantages/disadvantages facing me as I have facing them. The only issue is during co-operative drills which need to be modified.