Left Vom Tag

[Jake_Norwood]

HI all. Glad to be back.

My apologies if this has been discussed recently.

In a recent visit with JC we discussed vom Tag on the left side, and the possibility that it is or could be performed with the short edge forward. This allows a number of techniques to be performed, and it follows the pattern of the "inverted" pflug on the left side as well.

Thoughts? Pros? Cons? Images or passages in support or against?

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

I actualy go to left vom tag the way you describe because it is easier to execute technique's, my only question is if you change the position of the sword why doesn't the short edge long edge change also, it seem's like it should, if i do a zwerch and then pull to left pflug without turning the sword back doesn't my short edge become the one facing me, that is how i understood it from the manuel's the short edge face you the long is the one with the strong hand thumb pointing at it.

Jeff

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I also use this tech, unlike Jeff though I have always thought it was the short edge. I associate the long edge as being the edge alinged with my knuckles of my strong or lead hand, and therefore has nothing to do with the blade itself, but more my positioning of my lead hand in relation to the blade?

I would also be interested in what the Senior members have to say about this for instruction purposes to the new folks.- Thanks Aaron

[William Savage]

Jake

I looked in the historical terms section on the arma home page but didnt see anything on this technique. If its not to complicated to describe you might get usefull input from people who use the technique and dont know it or anyone with an imagination. If this technique is too complex or you really only want advice from experts thats completly understandable. just curious about the technicue.

ps thanks for the advice about the steambox on my sheild making thread Jeff.

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi Jake,

Short edge out?

Now that's something I've never tried. Is there any sound evidence that this may have been used?

Very interesting...

[John_Clements]

It's great. It works real well for effectively setting aside, allows cutting under and thrusting high, transitions easily to or from left Ochs, and turns readily into a Schrankhut or even right side hanging-point.

...Oddly, while described by several texts, in illustrations the left Pflug is invariably depicted with the long edge down like on the right side. So I believe both were certainly used as needed (on each side too, for that matter), but I default now to the short edge down version on the left.

JC

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi all.

Jeff-

As usual, right over my head. Slow down, buddy. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

William-

I haven't seen anyone using this version of the guard, nor have I seen it illustrated off the top of my head (you'll be hard pressed to find any illustration of left vom Tag anywhere in the manuals, though, I'd wager).

A drawback to this approach is the fact that you can't do it with the messer...or at least it doesn't seem that you could. The relationship between the longsword and the messer is a great key to the art, and it's unravelled a lot knots for me. That's why this bothers me. I really like this grip/version of vom Tag. I think that it makes several techniques more immediately available (see John's post). It also fits a pattern that I've been theorizing about for a pretty long time about inverted relationships between edges, crossed and uncrossed arms, etc. in German swordsmanship. In other words, I think that there's a lot of positive theoretical evidence here, but I'd love to actually see an image or read a passage that lends credibility to gripping this way.

However, re-addressing your post, William, the technique -- or position, really -- isn't complicated in the least. It's just different from what we've been doing and what's generally accepted as "correct."

Jake

[Derek Wassom]

I really like this position. I feel really comfortable in it.
I've seen something similar to this position in the ms, but it is always when completing an Underhow.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

you back for good Lt. Norwood?

In a recent visit with JC we discussed vom Tag on the left side, and the possibility that it is or could be performed with the short edge forward. This allows a number of techniques to be performed, and it follows the pattern of the "inverted" pflug on the left side as well.

I guess i have been doing it wrong all along, this is how i have been doing left vom tag for awhile, never even realy thought anything of it it just seemed more natural.

One question what is inverted pflug?


Jeff

By the way Jake thank's for leaving me high and dry with Meyer, thought i was going to lose what little i have left of my mind, Mike Cartier stepped in and answered some of my question's. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[TimSheetz]

Hi Jake,

Haven't tried it before - at least intentionally - but it seems that if you are conducting a rising cut from the right you could pass through left ochs and flip right into the position you decribe.

This I will be trying this Thursday during practice.

Just going through the motion in my mind's eye, I can see all sorts of handy uses and techniques spinning off of this. Great! Now I will be distracted ALL DAY.

A note on your comments on messers and their importance: we wouldn't have the terms for the edges "Long edge" and "Short edge" which seem to come directly form the Messer if it wasn't important.

Peace,

Tim

[Casper Bradak]

I really don't see why it couldn't be done with the messer any less effectively. It can still deflect, thrust from above and cut underneath, and do most anything the sword or longsword can do.
Obviously you can strike with the false edge, but it should be no more difficult to strike with the long edge. It should not slow your strike to turn the edge en-route to the target.
You can think of it as basically a static version of the common false edge forward parry, "with the turned around hand" that so often cuts from above, and not too different from the key.

[John_Clements]

I agree. I am not sure why Jake thinks the messer can't use it. It can.
And as Bart W. showed last summer, if not much earlier, this short edge Pflug is explicity described by several masters such as Jud Lew.

[Jeff Hansen]

Hey Jake, we've missed you in Provo.

"A drawback to this approach is the fact that you can't do it with the messer...or at least it doesn't seem that you could."

Granted, most of my understanding of the messer is secondhand through you and Stew to begin with, but, why not? For that matter if you're using a "thumb grip" how exactly would you stand in a left vom tag with your true edge forward? Bio-mechanically, unless your wrist is a lot more flexible than mine, it has to be false edge out. Right?
That, or I'm just confused again. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

Well, now that you all mention it, I suppose it would work fine with a messer. I even think that I've done it, now that I think on it (or maybe I'm constructing memories...who knows).

Turning the grip a bit (using the thumb or otherwise) would make an enormous difference. As it always seems to.

As for the "is LT Norwood back for good," yes. For now.

I'll be getting some clips of my solo training done in the next few weeks, which will include some of this stuff we've been theorizing on, so that we can all figure it out (and so that I can get tons of free criticism on the road to recovering my skills which have grown stale in the last 7 months of no training).

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

on the road to recovering my skills which have grown stale in the last 7 months of no training).

That maybe i bet your over all fitness level is better so it will not take long to get back in the swing of thing's. (pun intended)


Jeff