Western Regional Event

[Brian Hunt]

Information Website for this event can be found here.

Provo Symposium

This site will be updated as we move closer to the event.

Brian Hunt

GFS.

[Allen Johnson]

Question about the 'rapier simulators' . Is it really required to have one of these fiberglass things? I have two rapiers to my name and really dont wish to spend alot of money on equipment and tools I'll probably never use again to make something that i feel I probably wont use again. I guess the better question is- Will I be able to use my steel rapiers for the event? The other side of this is that I'm a complete dunce when it comes to making things. I looked at the instructions on how to make them and was lost before I got out of the list of tools needed. I dont wish to insult anyone at all or anything like that but I cant help but feel slightly embarassed at the thought of a buch of serious minded students of European martial arts duking it out with glued bits of plastic bowls and fiberglass sticks. I understand there is an issue with not many people owning rapiers and the issue of the difficulty of finding a waster or blunt that accuratley reflects period items- but is this really the best answer? Feels kind of backwards to me. Again, I'm not trying to insult anyone or undermine what's going on- I just dont really get it.

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Allen,

no, I do not believe it is required to have one of those fiberglass simulators, it is just reccomended as a good option for those who want to get started in rapier, but don't currently have a weapon. Think of it as a waster that is made out of fiberglass instead of wood. I happen to agree with John Clements that you can learn more with a wooden dowl than you can with flexible blades like schlagers, etc. Since John hasn't had much luck getting anyone to manufacture a decent wooden rapier waster, this is my solution to getting people started in rapier. They are inexpensive to make, 20 to 25 dollars as opposed to much more expensive flexi-bladed weapons (200-400 dollars) that don't perform as well as I think these do. Casper has bouted with the ones I made, and he seems to like them, why don't you ask him his opinion on these. You do need some control with them because they are quite stiff, but not as stiff as wood. I would say to bring your steel weapons by all means. I will be bringing mine with an Alchem blade (but even the "stiff" blade that I bought is still too whippy in my opinion), plus both of my fiberglass ones. I would reccomend that steel weapons are used only against steel weapons and that fiberglass is only used against fiberglass, as I would say for wood against wood.

Here are the dimensions that John reccomends for rapiers brought to this class.

"at least 46 inches long, with crosses no wider than 8 inches"

hope this helps, for more specific info, contact Stewart Feil.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

P.S. for anyone who has questions about building one of these, feel free to contact me in a private message here, or on the elist, or at the email address for me on the above website.

[Casper Bradak]

Yeah, there should be enough steel simulators or foils there to pair off well enough. With thrusting weapons, mixing materials isn't as bad as with longswords for example, but it would still save wear if we didn't mix metal with wood/fiberglass.
I particularly recommend the fiberglass ones to any study groups out there getting into rapier. They're a good simulator and a cummunal effort to put out a pile of study group wasters would be quick and well worth it.

[Allen Johnson]

Thanks for the explanations. Another possible idea may be for someone to make a few of these to sell or rent out at the even. Though it might mean getting stuck with the cost and labour of making them if they dont sell. I personally would have to buy a completed one if I chose to go that route- I have a hard time with anything that uses tools. I also am chatting with Scott Wilson of Darkwood Armories about getting another rapier. Looking at one of the 2- port cross models. If it can be made by early March, I'll probably do that- if not I might look into buying a fiberglass simulator off someone if they want to do that.
Another quick question- When John recomentds a "at least a 46 inch rapier" is that the total legnth or the blade legnth? thanks all.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Allen,

that would be total length. I prefer a 48" to a 50" rapier my ownself. If I really wanted to take advantage of my reach, I would go with on about 52" in overall length. If you go with about a 38" to 40" blade you should be fine. I generally figure about an inch to an inch and a half for a pommel, about four and a half inches for a grip, then you have about 2 and a half inches from the cross to the forward end of either your bell guard or basket giving you about 8 inches of length, when you add a 38" blade that will give you about a 46 inch weapon.

If your interested in buying a completed fiberglass one from me, let me know quickly because my to do list for this event is rapidly becoming full.

Brian Hunt.
GFS.

[John_Clements]

Stew, don't forget the lecture/presentations on Swords & Fencing History and the one on 15th century English Fencing Texts. Also, there will be Free-Scholar certification evals for the first four qualified members.

This is going to be a great event. Looking forward to it.

[John_Clements]

There's certainly nothing wrong with steel rapiers, they are mandatory for training....but in my experience teaching, people bring to a rapier workshop class all sorts of junk from sport foils and theatrical epees to Chinese wooden swords and bokken. Some even bring sharp replica blades (!) I have seen rubber points come flying off rapiers to reveal sharp points and had people who brought stage combat weapons without any rubber points (I have seen Sca people actually get stabbed in the hand even by "blunt" points that were uncovered). Plus, the rapier simulators and schlagers on the market are invariably so whippy that they actually hinder proper rapier techniques. So, I'd rather students have a stiff blade or wooden foil that performs correctly than a "safe" flexi that let’s them go "boing" on someone all day. As well, try using a whippy steel blade drooping under a heavy covered point against a stiff and agile wooden foyle and you will be lost. After all, most of the intro class is spent correcting form and correcting myths and misconceptions about rapier fighting perpetuated by popular media, sport fencing, and the martial-sports of historical role-playing societies.

JC

[Allen Johnson]

Scott over at Darkwood has started making his own blades. He says he can make them "as stiff as you want". Is there any way to measure stifness in a way that can be measured and relayed for a comission like this? How would you describe the blade behavior to someone making one for you?

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Allen,

that is a good question. Since I have never had the opportunity before to try and describe how stiff I want a blade for manufacture before, I don't have a pat answer for you. I would say that you want a blade that isn't floppy, that the point cannot be pushed offline due to the flex in the blade with easy to moderate/moderate-hard pressure. I hate blades that wiggle like a noodle when you do a quick action or when you encounter another persons blade. I have tried to fence with blades where the point "followed" the rest of the blade due to how easily the thing flexed while simply doing a normal action, such as a cavatione or a remise.There has to be some "give" to the blade, otherwise it won't be tough, it will be too hard and break, but all the reproduction or flexible blades I have yet handled, including sharps, all err on being too flexible and sproingy like a spring. Of course I have yet to handle every blade that is being manufactured out there, but I haven't seen one yet that I would consider to be stiff enough. Of course when you have an extremly stiff blade, you must train with that in mind, your training partner will take the full force of your thrust, it will not be mitigated by the flex of the blade, therefore control is of paramount interest.This is of course the point (forgive the pun <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) to a thrusting weapon, stiff enough to impart all of the force you put behind it into pentration, not flex. A lot of the recreation groups out there rely on the safty built into the flex of a blade, rather than control. This can, and often does, comprimise their techniques.

take this for what it's worth to you, and I hope some of it helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Brian Hunt]

Interesting web page with some rapier measurements including balance points, something you don't generally find with rapier measurements.

http://www.musketeer.org/Garrick/Blade_spec_article.html

thought this might go hand in hand with the stiffness discussion.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Allen Johnson]

Ooohhh perfect! Great find! I'll have to pass this on to Scott at Darkwood. Now I just need to figure out what all those numbers actually mean! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Allen,

One of the things to keep in mind is that a real rapier blade will have less mass at the tip due to a distal taper compared to a blunt, so the balance point must be at a slightly different location for a blunt weapon than a sharp due to differences in the distribution of the mass of the weaons. Much like having 2 steel bars that balance in the middle and have the same weight, but one is thin in the middle and fat at the ends, and the other one is thick in the middle and thin at the ends. Even though they have the same balance point and the same mass, due to the difference in the distribution of the mass they will each handle very differently. So in order for a blunt to handle like a sharp, the balance point has to be changed for the blunt. If I remember correctly, and this is off the top of my head, that means that the blunt will generally need to have the balance point closer to the hand than the sharp, in order to compensate for the extra mass at the tip of the blunt (especially if you stick a large rubber bird blunt on the end). You also get the same problem with blunt vs. sharp longswords, etc. Which is why I would never sharpen one of the squire line blades from Albion, they are balanced as a blunt and sharpening them will change things so they handle a little differently.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt.

[David_Knight]

For those of us who are attending but aren't terribly committed to learning the rapier, what diameter of wooden dowel would be best?

I may be able to borrow a blunt, but otherwise I'll be throwing something together just for the event. I was thinking of setting a dowel into a separate hardwood cross/hilt, which would be pretty simple. I can't exactly make the basket out of wood, though... Can I get by without it?

[Casper Bradak]

I've put together a couple of rapier wasters recently. I've found 3/4" oak dowels from the hardware store work best. I put a spherical wooden pommel on them, and a heavy leather dish guard.
I also bought some end caps at the hardware store which I trimmed the ends off of to hold the guard in place above and below, and another cap to button the tip. There are plastic caps that fit securely, and have wide, rounded tips that blunt them very nicely, and are easier than attaching a wooden ball point (though not as authentic or classy, they'll work at least as well).