ballistics gelatin

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Martin,Younger
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ballistics gelatin

Postby Martin,Younger » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:29 am

Has anyone heard of ballistics gelatin i was watching the myth busters and they were useing ballistics gelatin and they sead that it was the clousest thing to human tissue. so i thought could it help us in cutting test i am new so i doun't know what kind of damage a zornha would do to a person i can imagine. I looked up the ballistics gelatin for a price and it would be very coustly and take a lot of time to make a mold to be tested on but please let me know if i am just getting a head of my self becouse i am trying to find what i can to help benafit and do my part for arma.

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JeffGentry
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby JeffGentry » Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:57 am

Hey Martin

I was wondering this also, i know nothing about the stuff.

Jeff
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Brian Hunt
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby Brian Hunt » Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:51 pm

There are actually a couple of do it yourself recipies on the internet for balistic geletan, I think there is one on the FBI's web site, but I have never worked with it.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby Brian Hunt » Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:00 pm

Hey Stewart,

you know me, I believe in doing it myself rather than pay someone else. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

for those that are interested, this is an interesting report on ballistic gelatin, and it has some links to how to mix it and places to purchase your gelatin from.

http://nldt2.arl.psu.edu/documents/ballistic%20gelatin%20report%20(2-18-04).pdf

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
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GeorgeHill
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby GeorgeHill » Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:51 pm

I do not know if balistic gel would be good with swords. I do know why they use it with bullets.

The idea is that it streaches and flexes like flesh, and has the same cosistancy. If you shoot someone with a bullet, especially a hollowpoint, what happens is that you get two differnt wound cavities.

One is the perminate wound cavity, which is the bullet hole you still have when you get to the hospital. It's the same size as the bullet, give or take. A hollow point increases in diameter as it passes through flesh, and will have a larger exit hole then entry hole. A rifle at close range may actually produce a chunk sized exit hole.

The other is the temporary wound cavity. The temporary wound cavity is much larger the the perminate one. This is basically produced by strech. A bullet, even a pointy bullet, is realitively blunt. IT's just moving so fast that it penetrates. Now, If you stab someone with a dagger, it cuts into them, and makes a hole it's size and shape. If you shoot someone with a bullet, it's more like you rammed a bar clean through them. This produces 'streach' in the flesh. The temporary wound cavity is a very large hole that only lasts an instant, but it can disrupt nearby tissues, and some belive it is more important in producing an 'incapasitating' wound then is the perminate wound cavity, espeically if it stressed nerve tissue.

The last time I was reading up on this, conventional wisdom in firearms had decided that the temporary wound cavity was not actually that important, but that may have changed since I was doing my reading.

Balistic gelitan is very useful in measureing temporary wound cavities, but it's also useful in measuring bullet penetration. Ideally, you want a bullet that is moving really fast, but does not exit an adverage sized human body. You don't want it hitting someone behind the bad guy, and you don't want it exiting for another, more important reason. You want all your energy dumped into the target, or the enegry is wasted. (This is another place where the temporary wound cavity comes in.) The usual method is a hollow point, or a soft point, which expends the diameter of the bullet. Other methods are soft points, which do like wise, fragmenting bullets, which break the bullet into peices on impact, and with the M-16 and AK-74, bullets that turn on their side and fragment, and which change their center of gravity and spiril in strange directions inside the body respectively.

The channel of the bullet, where the bullet ends up, how deep the bullet goes, how many peices the bullet is in, and the size of the perminate and temporary wound cavities are easiest to measure with the gel, as it is clear. You can also photograph the bullet as it travels, and observe the temporary wound cavities with highspeed photography.

Balistic gel does NOT take into account bones, heavy clothing, etc.

Since we are more interisted in test cutting, or measuring the overall wound size in meat, I don't see it as that useful for sword scholars.
What mihgt be very useful to us is to put large bones into balistic gelitan, and to hit them with a sword whilst taking pictures with a highspeed camera.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby Brian Hunt » Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:03 am

Hi George,

what you are descibing is the what is known as the Falker wound profile (as I am sure you already know) and is one of the reasons I have not gone to the expense of playing with ballistic gelatin. The other reason is the problems of bone, etc. that gelatin doesn't take into account, that you have pointed out. That is part of the reasons I posted the link to the pdf file, it goes into a lot of what you are describing.

The other problem with gelatin is that you have to test its calibration and it has to be kept at 4 degrees C and needs to be used quickly after being taken from refrigeration in order to maintain that calibration. It degrades quickly as it warms up and becomes easier to penetrate, therefore it quickly stops being the equivelant of flesh. The FBI throws away any gelitan that doesn't meet its calibration test with a bb gun. This stuff can also be a messy cleanup, I have read accounts where it has been spilled and blacktop, and when it was cleaned up a couple of hours later, it took part of the blacktop surface with it. Sounds a little expensive for my budget.

Brian Hunt
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GeorgeHill
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby GeorgeHill » Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:23 am

Hmm... It will disolve asphault? Gracious!

I wonder if it would affter a sword blade... bullets are after all, disposable.

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Jared L. Cass
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby Jared L. Cass » Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:12 am

Neat info George! While ballistic gelatin would seem to be not much use to test cutting it soundls like it would be great for test thrusting/ puncturing for experiments with rapiers, various tipped arrows (ie. different broad heads vs the pointy trianglar ones...can't think of the term for those right now <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> ), dagger stab wounds, long sword thrusts, ect.

Now that could be interesting! Wonder how the wound channel is different for each of the above mentioned test subjects ? <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

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GaryGrzybek
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby GaryGrzybek » Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:56 am

I'm not sure if any of you missed it but there was a program on the other night that showed this very experiment. Mike Loades hosted "Weapons That Made Britain -The Sword" on the History Channel and provided some very accurate information. In fact, I think this is one of the best I've seen so far. The tests were done against balistic gel blocks with various weapons made by Raven Armouries. The cuts and thrusts yeilded some very excellent results and allowed a comparison among different blade types. Mike also test cut against a helm made by a local armorer. Wasn't this something we (ARMA) were condemmed for not long ago?

Anyway, Mike and his students also showed some demonstrations based on Talhoffer on foot and horseback, in and out of harness.

I recommend checking it out <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Gary

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Martin,Younger
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby Martin,Younger » Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:58 am

I thought that if u added bones and organs it would help to see what happens to the body. but if u add bones u would need to find bones that are realistic to one in a human body and u will have to place them in the mold at a certen dictence from the mold that way u have a realistic body shape and not have a lot of jell in front of the ribbs ect. It would be very hard to make a realistic body for testing. also i would be hard to find the right stuff to repasent the organs or use pig organs ect. on a nother not is there any sites that have info on what happens to the body when cut or stabbed

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GeorgeHill
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby GeorgeHill » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:59 am

Martian, whacking dead animals with the sword is an old established technique of test cutting. Animal bones should not be too hard to come by, easier at anyrate then the balistic gel. The high speed camera would help us examine what we already know, (That bones do not stand up to solid cuts) but in more detail , as we could actually examine the actions taking place.

PErsonally I don't see gel as being much use alone in testing swords, since I beleive the sword would only lop the gel into nice bitesized chunks. How much do you learn from cubing jello? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though, if anyone has any ideas, let me know.

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KatherineJohnson
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby KatherineJohnson » Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:51 pm

It's important to keep in mind that the bones start hardening after an animal dies and become substantilly more diffacult to cut. So you'd want to do your experiment withen a relatively short ammount of time for maximum realism.
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david welch
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby david welch » Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:35 pm

It's important to keep in mind that the bones start hardening after an animal dies and become substantilly more diffacult to cut. So you'd want to do your experiment withen a relatively short ammount of time for maximum realism.


Or calibrate for it by using smaller bones.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: ballistics gelatin

Postby Brian Hunt » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:46 pm

On an interesting note,

I was just watching Myth Busters, and they did an experiment where they determined that the human femur will break at 625 pounds of force, they then determined that the wood poplar is a good substitute as it breaks at a little over 600 pounds of force.

kind of fun.

Brian Hunt
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