Theory: Why No Rear Naked Choke

[Jake_Norwood]

Some time ago there was a discussion here on why rear-mounted positions, especially chokes, are rare-to-nonexistant in the old manuals. During a discussion with SGT Larsen, head of US Army Combatives (and ARMA member), I got an idea.

As many of you know, in higher level classes a taser (or stun gun? I don't know the difference. This is the kind you have to touch a guy with) is dropped secretly into the pocket of one of the students; only he and the instructors knows who has it. When the free-wrestling and fighting begins, that guy usually tries to get the taser--which stands in for a knife--out to use it.

While this adds an obvious level of added intensity to training, SGT Larsen pointed out another observation: the use of a seated mount, with "hooks" in, with the purpose of choking, dissapears almost entirely *because it just presents an easy target for the taser* in the form of the legs. Simply put, it fails to control the opponent's weapon.

He also stated, however, that this hasn't been a factor *at all* on the modern battlefield, because no one trains to draw their knife during a hand-to-hand fight currently. Thus out of over 200 recorded hand-to-hand fights in the current war(s), only 2 (!!!) involved knives, despite the fact that most every soldier has been carrying one when attacked.

In Medieval/Renn combat, however, we know that they did train both to use their knife/dagger and to employ it. Like the students with the taser, even if the "badguy" hasn't produced the taser yet, you assume that he may have one and that he may employ it just as things get desparate (and you're busy using both hands to choke him while his hands are free to draw the weapon and "stab" your inner thighs with it).

Thoughts?

Jake

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Jake, <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I took a police ground fighting class a few months ago. Really good stuff. Among the things the instructor (Dave Young) taught was that:
1. Everything he showed worked identically on the ground as standing.
2. Just learn a few things and drill them repeatedly under stress.
and
3. How to use your nifty 80$ clip on pocketknife in a groundfight. He taught that you draw it and deploy it fast (yeah, you gotta practice this) and essentially take your knife and start to climb up the guy with it. So, when the BJJ expert your are wrestling starts to dismantle you, and your limited grappling skills aren't up to the task, just slice him to bits and he will let go.

4. The other thing that was big was weapon retention and gun stripping. When you do this, you really focus in on the handgun with what you do.

[david welch]

Looks to me like that is just a failure to teach any real H2H by the military, and a sort of "pc" training when they do.

I know we only had maybe less that a couple of days on bayonet, H2H, and knife. And that was with non-related classroom stuff in-between.

But I understand that with only 8 weeks to train with, you need to focus on things that have a good chance of happening. And in the modern military the thinking is that if you are in a H2H situation, someone messed up hard.

[Randall Pleasant]

Jake

I was actually thinking about this the other night while watching a person take out another person with a rear naked choke on the the Ultimate Fighter reality show. As the guy was tapping out I was thinking that a good knife thust through the bicep would break the hold. The primary goal should be removing that arm from around your neck - you only have seconds! Thus, I would choose to attack the arm around my neck rather than trying to bleed him out with stabs to his legs and lower body. On the flip side, if you do a technique that gives you control of the adversary's head I would suggest shaking his head as hard as possible a few times as a preperation for other techniques. Animals get a lot of mileage from shaking their prey.

[david welch]

On the flip side, if you do a technique that gives you control of the adversary's head I would suggest shaking his head as hard as possible a few times as a preperation for other techniques. Animals get a lot of mileage from shaking their prey.

That sounds like an excellent observation, and a good thing to give a try while training. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

Weapons are certainly a deterrent for trying to choke someone, in addition to the tempo of real combat, among other things.
In our area of study, one can find many techniques both for and against standing rear attacks (and throat attacks, though not chokes), but as you can find in various ground-fighting and ring-fighting threads, the need to use chokes and the time they take are the area of fighting sports primarily, and for good reason.
It wouldn't suprise me if back then, chokes were thought of as techniques of murderers, all things considered.

[Randall Pleasant]

David Welch wrote:
...a good thing to give a try while training.

David

I think the smiley face means you are joking but just in case, please don't do that in training! <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

All excellent thoughts, I agree with the choke hold theory- I just heard a phrase that went " If grappling is your thing remember blunt force is king". Which I like very much.

There are so many nasty things you can employ to get out of holds, but I guess the best is, do not let him get one on you- easier said than done I realize, but I am not going to give my opponent the time to work one in-Later, Aaron

[Randall Pleasant]

Jake wrote:
the use of a seated mount...dissapears almost entirely because...it fails to control the opponent's weapon.

When I was a teenage a young man from a near-by community made this mistake in a fight with a man who had just finished up several years of hard time. Luckly that mistake was worth only 400+ stitches rather than his life. The young man actually hit the other man a number of times in the face before he realised that he had been sliced up. I guess one leason from this sad incident is that if you are on the bottom you better stab rather slice. Without doubt, this story has played out many times in many places.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

While this adds an obvious level of added intensity to training, SGT Larsen pointed out another observation: the use of a seated mount, with "hooks" in, with the purpose of choking, dissapears almost entirely *because it just presents an easy target for the taser* in the form of the legs. Simply put, it fails to control the opponent's weapon.

It actualy take's a little time to choke someone to unconciousness, long enough if they keep there head to pull a knife and do you serious harm.

He also stated, however, that this hasn't been a factor *at all* on the modern battlefield, because no one trains to draw their knife during a hand-to-hand fight currently. Thus out of over 200 recorded hand-to-hand fights in the current war(s), only 2 (!!!) involved knives, despite the fact that most every soldier has been carrying one when attacked.

When i was in the Marine's we weren't taught this in H2H, I had been carring knive's most of my life and and was very proficient at drawing and opening a buck 110 with one hand no thumb stud needed, i also carried a 14.5 inch western cutlrey bowie, along with a kabar.
When i got to my unit after bootcamp we did quite abit of informal knife fighting with rubber knive's and hand to hand and i was not a bit hesitant to draw a knife against someone unarmed.

and you're busy using both hands to choke him while his hands are free to draw the weapon and "stab" your inner thighs with it).

I could see an easy shot at the femoral artery, he might choke you out before he bled to death, i don't know, either way you win.

Jeff

[TimSheetz]

Hi Dave,

You are right, there is not a lot of H2H training - none in most units... but when you have a thousand tasks to train on, it goes to the way side, cause you "make more money" teaching them to shoot better. You have to get past the bullets to do H2H. Heck, most units don't train to shoot enough either. I guess all the "Consideration of Others" training gets in the way.

Most H2H incidents are in the peacekeeping/ peace enforcement type environment. I know a lot of soldiers had to deal with ornery detaiinees, or a samrt alec guy who is bankning that US soldier won't shoot him when unarmed. So the grappling ensues.

The other problem is that you have so much stuff on your web gear, getting a knife out can be problematic. I would venture that if you were infantry or maybe MP you wouldn't even think much about it (at least the average guy).

This transporter thinks about it all the time.

My portion is off topic so it is my last post on this I think.

Tim

[TimSheetz]

Jake,

I read a "from the field" account that was sent to SFC Larsen from a guy who had gotten into a struggle while deplyed.

According to him, he COULDN"T do the rear naked choke hold becuase his armored vest was too bulky and got in the way. HE ended up subduing him with another method, but that fact that soldiers and Marines get burdened with armor and gear may affect what they do....

The historcial fighters also may have been burdened with buly clothing, armor, etc... and just didn't bother learning to use somthing they could even perfomr in armor.

Tim

[Jay Vail]

Tim,

It’s unfortunate that the military neglects H2H in its training. The Classical Greeks all learned to wrestle -- a different style of wrestling than we are accustomed to, for it happened standing and the objective was to throw the man to the ground, but grappling nonetheless. Pankration, which involved ground wrestling, was also wildly popular, but not as universally practiced, apparently, as wrestling.

Yet wrestling probably had little direct impact on the hoplite battlefield. Encumbered with helmet, cuirass, and shield, and with the imperative to stay in line rather than engage in single combat, the hoplite probably had little opportunity for wrestling.

However, wrestling (or H2H) certainly were seen to have benefits for the hoplite, since all Greek sports were intended to prepare the soldier for battle. What could those be? The most obvious is physical conditioning. Nothing places demands on a man’s conditioning like wrestling. For another, standing wrestling trains one to keep one’s balance, a necessity when in the push and shove of hoplite battle. For a third, it is mental conditioning, inculcating the warrior spirit and the will to prevail.

So, while it’s understandable why the military would focus on other things that provide a more visible benefit, like marksmanship (can’t argue with the need for that), it seems to me that a mistake is being made, and has historically been made, in overlooking the value of wrestling/H2H. Why not wrestle, then, instead of callisthenics?

On your question why the old manuals don’t show much ground wrestling, your idea that there’s a fear that the guy on the ground has a knife has been discussed before, and I think there’s a lot to this notion. Hockheim tells a story in one of his books about a woman kickboxer who tossed an attacker and leaned over him to deliver the coup de grace only to take a knife in the face (fortunately she survived; it was one of those small bladed punch knives).

Last week, I played knives with a kid in karate class. He cross trains in BJJ. He’s high on this art and was convinced he as nearly invulnerable because of it. Thought he could tie me up so bad I’d scream for mercy, but I was easily able to “cut” him up with my wood knife waster, often by simply shifting the waster to my other hand when he grabbed the original knife hand.

The lesson seems to be that when you’re on the ground and the other guy has a knife, you’re in a lot more trouble than you were standing up because you have no way to avoid the blow.

Regards, JV

[Jay Vail]

Do you have references for the 200+ knife attacks during the current wars?

[TimSheetz]

Hi Jay,

I didn't refer to 200+ attacks (I think Jake did). I know that Matt Larsen has been collecting AAR comments and feedback from those that have been involved in h2h incidents in the theater of ops.

I agree, it is a shame that the military has not trained as much as it should, but that is in the process of change. As we are looking at a style of war that involves getting a lot closer to enemy who is diguised as noncombatants the opportunity for more of these types of exchanges grows.

To change a culture (the Army one) take a long time, but I think it is working.

There are so many things to do that are not directly combat related - especially for your non-combat arms folks, that to fit in combatives is difficult.. not impossible. I have already had one session here.

Tim