the master strikes of Liechtaneur

[Victor Hansen]

Doing some study of Liechtaneur' and wonded if anyone could help me out by listing the 5 names of the Master strikes of Liechtaneur longsword and if possible what guards the strikes are used against. Can anyone suggest any links to material for Liechtaneur longsword material (and sword and buckler also if I havent already got that).

Much thanks.

[Randall Pleasant]

Victor

All of your questions are answered in the following articles here on the ARMA site: The Mastercuts – What They Are and What They Aren’t and Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword. Next work your way through the other articles on the ARMA's ARTICLES & ESSAYS page.

I also highly suggest getting a copy of <u>Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword</u> by David Lindholm. Lindholm's book is the best book on the market on the teachings of Liechtaneur.

Enjoy! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Victor Hansen]

thanks for that!

[Jaron Bernstein]

Joachim Meyer also teaches in the Lichtenauer tradition and has the great benefit of pictures (well, really good woodcuts) and the clearest instructions I have seen in a manual so far. On the anti-side, I have heard a number of people who know more than me comment that Meyer is a more "sportified" version of Lichty than Ringeck. But Meyer does describe the Meisterhau. Interestingly enough, Dobringer's 1389 commentary on Master Lichty (which preceeds Ringeck's commentary that Svard and Lindholm do an awesome job of showing) does NOT emphasize the meisterhau.

[David Craig]

I'd also highly recommend getting a copy of Christian Tobler's, Fighting with the German Longsword . It is geared toward beginners and includes a lot of drills, some of which you can practice solo.

David Craig

[David_Knight]

I also highly suggest getting a copy of Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword by David Lindholm. Lindholm's book is the best book on the market on the teachings of Liechtaneur.

I second that. I recently acquired a copy and it is amazingly well done!

[Jake_Norwood]

Agh...I don't want to get into this, but don't buy the "sportified" version of fencing argument with Meyer. I wouldn't call what we do in our classes and groups sport, and Meyer is closer to us than *anything* that resembles a game with rules. But that's another, long, heated argument.

Jake

[robrobertson]

I'l second that Jake! They seemed to me to be every bit as effective as anything that I've experienced! Of course I'm a soft stiff slow and fat old man. I have a lot to learn. That's what I LOVE about arma! But I can recognize "effective in battle" when I see it! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rob

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Agh...I don't want to get into this, but don't buy the "sportified" version of fencing argument with Meyer. I wouldn't call what we do in our classes and groups sport, and Meyer is closer to us than *anything* that resembles a game with rules. But that's another, long, heated argument.

Jake
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[Shane Smith]

The biggest evidence I see for a sportified Meyer is the slapping with the flat in one of his plays...Why not just zwerch the other guy to death?

[Randall Pleasant]

Some time ago Jake stated that he did not think this was some type of "bitch-slap" but was something we just don't yet understand (please correct me Jake if I mis-state your position). I agree. Just because we don't understand a technique doesn't mean it a sportified technique. A negative is never good evidence, the lack of thrusting in Meyer's writings gives as much weight to "Meyer just didn't discuss thrusting" as it does to "Meyer didn't thrust".

[Casper Bradak]

I disagree with Jake a bit on that (the prellhau), in that it's pretty plainly described and illustrated as a strike with the flat to the face. That said, it obviously isn't the objective of the technique, as it's followed up on with a more lethal technique.
Why don't you just zwerch the guy to death? A completely valid option, but like any martial art, there should always be options of combining minor moves with major ones, to distract, harass, and set up major moves. And apparently Master Meyers foils were flexible enough to get appreciable wrap and rebound effects on top of whatever a sharp would do. So I think it could be the most "sportified" technique he shows, but it's still effective with sharps in a fight, so I don't think it can be used to argue that Meyer was sportifying the longsword.

[Jake_Norwood]

Okay, so this is thread drift, but that's okay.

Casper, I'm not sure what you don't agree with. I never stated that the prelhau isn't a flat strike to the face. I did propose that the use of the flat may be a training method, but the fact is in working with steel blunts I became relatively convinced that the use of the flat in the prelhauw is just one more example of Meyer using set-up strikes to lead up to a real hum-dinger. Try hitting something solid with the flat of your blunt and then twitching a zwerch with the edge to the other side. Fast, mean, powerful.

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

In that case, I guess I misunderstood your earlier comments. I completely agree with what you just said.

[Jaron Bernstein]

But if you are in position to actually hit with the flat, why not hit with the edge instead at that time? Then there would be no need to set up a second strike if the first one does the job? I can see using the flat for lots of other things, but not for hitting the guy when a more lethal edge is right there.

But please don't take this as discounting Meyer <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> We have been working with the man (well, his book at least) for the past few months and have learned a great deal from him that we can't from the other manuals due to his wonderful descriptions.

[Jake_Norwood]

But if you are in position to actually hit with the flat, why not hit with the edge instead at that time? Then there would be no need to set up a second strike if the first one does the job? I can see using the flat for lots of other things, but not for hitting the guy when a more lethal edge is right there.

Because you can often very safely assume that a strike will be deflected. If he protects himself against an edge blow you may lose the initiative. If you are rebounding twice as fast because of the flat strike, however, you'll hit an opening very quickly. And a flat strike still sucks, trust me...

Jake