Defending Myself

[CoreyGray]

Greetings!

As much as I adore the medieval era and wish to learn the art of the longsword, my first concern is self-defense. I suppose I could use a telescoping baton to give someone a nasty surprise. Barring that, I want to learn how to defend myself if I were attacked while travelling (I have a bad case of wanderlust I hope to cure in a couple years).

I have no measurable experience with unarmed combat. I am not a big guy at 5' 8" and 135 lbs though I expect to gain some weight as I strength train. I saw some threads on grappling but they seemed to require I have some experience with grappling already. I also want to do more than just grapple.

What are your recommendations for learning how to fight? Assume I will be fighting for my life and anything goes. Styles that complement ARMA teachings would be wonderful as then I could combine all my future studies without akward shifting. I would prefer to stick with a Western style but, if that's not an option (especially in my small town), a suitable Eastern style would work. As long as it allows me to flatten someone I could encounter on the street (I have this nasty habit of wanting to run towards any screaming I hear).

Thanks!

EDIT: I had a thought. When I get back from school tomorrow (today?), I will call the local instructors and see what is available. Then anyone who is kind enough to help me knows what I have to work with. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Look for a style that has the following features:

1. A mixture of ranges. It should teach groundwork, standing grappling/throws and striking.

2. Simplicity. If it takes you 15 years to learn, requires you to be able to do complex 15 move sequences on an opponent and has 80 step forms, this is not a good style for self defense (in the next decade or so at least).

I recommend HEMA. If you can't get that, look at Krav Maga, Muay Thai, western boxing, BJJ, mixed martial arts or something like that. 6 months of intense training in any of the above should give you a skill usable in the real world on real people. Do NOT look at Aikido or Tai Chi for self defense. While they do have their merits, it takes decades of practice before you can actually use those arts on actual resisting opponents of any competence.

[Mike Cartier]

a good mixture of wrestling, boxing, muay thai and brazillian Jiu-jitsu is my suggestion but that can take time.

For a short trip to combat effectivenesss i recommend 3 elements to concentrate upon.

1. Punching, punch hard and fast, shadow box alot, hit the bag with and without gloves. Spar with someone with gloves on so you can handled pressure. Boxing by far the most effective form of striking i have seen for the hands. Start by learning to put your shoulders into your punches, learn the proper mechanics of a jab, cross, hook &amp; uppercut.
PUNCH HARD, punching lightly or weakly does noone any good.

2. Defense, develop your defense. You can't do anything if you get knocked silly and being small (i am 150 lbs) you are liable to getting knocked out easier than other folks of the larger persuasion. Boxing defensive concepts are good up to a point but remember much of it is assuming you have gloves on. Spend time with someone trying to take your head off as you try to not get hit using your elbows. forearms , hands and footwork. slipping punches is the best way to deflect power but takes finer timing and control. learn to move your head after you punch and as soon as your opponent punche, develop the habit of raising your hands in front of your face for protection after every flurry of punches you pull off.

3. get comfortable in the clinch, you will be there regardless of desire, lok up some Muay thai clinching info online, its a great tatic to learn to start clinch tight and start laying in the knee strikes as fast and hard as you can do them, it takes great skill in clinch work to avoid sdome big shots once you are clinched and the knees start flying.
From clinch its just a slip to the ground, learn some ground work, you will end up there no matter what you want.

and as an addition to all this i recommend stick work, get a flashlight or a extendable baton ot just a stick. Swing it alot, again speed and power are essential as well as accuracy.


an excellent comparitive martial arts resource is Stick Grapplers page

[CoreyGray]

There really isn't a lot out here... Locally there are three studios.

Roseburg Martial Arts focuses on 'Tang Soo Do.' A quick look on the web makes me think this is far too 'sportsy' for my tastes.

Dynamic Judo has a website at http://www.dynamicjudo.com/ and focuses on Kodokan Judo. Their website seems to place tournaments before self-defense so I am not encouraged.

Bob Shores' Chinese Boxing Academy also has a website at http://www.bscba.com/ and focuses on Wing Chun and Sansoo. His website appears to have no focus on tournaments and even in the description of Sansoo he says there is no sport application for it. This is the one I am most hopeful about.

I would have to do more digging to try and find Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, Western boxing, or Muay Thai. The Krav Maga sounds awesome though. Exactly what I am looking for: down and dirty self-defense fighting. Sadly, the closest instructor is and hour and a half away. In order to attend the classes, I would be taking four hours (driving plus instruction) out of my day, five days a week. They said that within a year they hope to have instructors closer to me.

What do you guys think?

[Jaron Bernstein]

If these are your only options, I would pick the Judo club you list here and make sure that they also teach you the striking/MMA aspect that appears on offer at their school in addition to ringen (throws/grappling).

As a general note, you must understand that using these arts is more of a journey than a destination. There is not magic point at which you "become proficient" and then no longer need to train.

[Jaron Bernstein]

If the Krav Maga ever comes closer to you, take that as a first choice.

[Mike Cartier]

Judo is a fine grappling art, its sport mentality just needs to be worked around thats all. Same as you would do in boxing or wreslting. the fact that its sportified means they will do lots of free fighting within thier rules which will develop great attributes you will never develop without the many hours spent in sport play.

Sport fighting is the backbone of western martial arts, not just modern WMA either but this history of sporting competitions goes back into the very beginnings of western history. Sporting applications were always used to develop high levels of attributes directly relatable to combat

The best fighting arts i know of are all sportified, Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, wrestling (greco-roman 7 freestyle)

[Jay Vail]

Mike’s right about the combat utility of judo. Even the sporting stuff, the throws, chokes and locks, are useful. Randori, or free play, is useful. If you decide on judo, ask specifically to learn the goshinjutsu kata, which has many of judo’s self defense techniques in it. I have used judo on the street and I will testify that it is effective at self defense, although it is not a silver bullet (since I got pounded a few times despite the judo). But then, nothing is a silver bullet, I don’t care who you are or how long you’ve trained or whether you bill yourself a grand master.

Unfortunately, there are not many EMA that are specifically designed for self defense and that can be learned quickly. You have to spend at least two years at most of them to gain any degree of skill. I used to run a karate school and two years seems to be the break point at which most students have a sufficient command of basic technique to use it effectively, and we were a pretty self defense oriented system. You could do it in less time if you trained every day. And there is always a danger that some of what you learn is a salon acquisition, that is, it was added to the art because it looked cool, not because it has combat utility.

I’ve been doing karate since 1970, and I’m satisfied with that as a base. Its simplest response, the block-punch, will work in most self defense situations. Add judo and the ringen armlocks and you have a pretty effective system IMO.

As for Western historical arts, they are interesting and useful. For self defense purposes, however, I view them as add-ons to what I already know. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to look at them as a repackaging, for in most respects they are identical to what I’ve practiced in the Asian styles anyway.

[Jake_Norwood]

I'm different. Although I'm "trained" in Army Combatives (which is really just BJJ at the lower levels), my first self defense response is Ringen, which I've been working on the longest. I feel moderately confident in my ability to use the principles and many of the techniques against a would-be assailant. These are techniques that were often intended for street-use in self defense situations.

I'm not saying that Ringen is your best bet. But it's gotten me somewhere.

Jake

[Jaron Bernstein]

2 years is reasonable to skill development, but I don't think that is what he is looking for. MMA, Muay Thai or Krav Maga give you a "real world" usable base in a far shorter time frame (provided you train them intensively). The blessing and curse with WMA is that it tends to be a DIY enterprise. You get to use you mind trying to figure out what the manuals mean and the techniques haven't been watered down by time. OTOH, the manuals don't really as much go into "this is a basic punch or block" as you would in a EMA class. While there are reasons for this (why use rare paper and parchment on things it is assumed everyone knows) it does make learning WMA a longer process.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, the nice thing about the ringen I have found is that it DOES work in the real world where some of the more fancy and newer EMA things don't. The down side being you have to figure it out for yourself from a very old book. And many techniques in WMA and EMA are similar, given that the human body only articulates in certain ways.

[Jared L. Cass]

Hi Corey. You sound alot like I did a number of years ago. Befor I spent over a year totale between jobs backpacking the brittish isles, europe, the middle east, and australia I too had some of the same "self defense" concerns as you.

But dude, take this advise and really think about it...you wrote:

" As long as it allows me to flatten someone I could encounter on the street (I have this nasty habit of wanting to run towards any screaming I hear)."

You really need to think about changing this attitude or you'll end up seriously hurting/killing yourself even if you trained combatants 24/7 befor you hit the wandering road.

The biggest self defense asset you have is between your ears. Don't go looking for trouble, be aware of your surroundings, if a situation "feels" uncomfortable trust your instincts, ect.

That said, even if the nearest Krav M. instructer is an hour and a half away, IMO that would be your best bet. Even if you're only able to travel out there a couple of times a month. Also, and in the mean time, see if you can get a friend or two to spar with you. Put on some gloves and go at it. Wrestle, punch, kick, throw, bite, gouge (get some swimming or racket ball goggles) ect. It doesn't matter if you guys have former/current training. Just fight to win against each other. In this manner you'll learn just how quickly things can change in a fight and what will make you the "winner" the quickest.

Just remember that it's the preventive measures that will keep you 99% of the time from ever having to put your fighting skills to the test. The other 1% is where some sort of training will be of help. And once that happens it's basically just luck anyway that will decide if you make it home or not.

Before you pack the bag and head off, be sure to check in and let us know where you're off to! Have fun, you won't ever regret it (the good and the bad).

Take care and use your head!

Jared L, Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Gene Tausk]

Corey:

Agree with the posters who have reccomended Krav Maga. It is really, IMHO, self-defense at its purest form and 6 months of good training will give you the skills to handle a variety of situations.

Having said that, I also echo Jared's statements that the most "lethal" tool in your arsenal is the gray matter between your ears. Generally, if you don't go looking for trouble, it won't go looking for you. If you are traveling in a foreign country and an unknown offers to buy you drinks in a bar, I would be very hesitant (I would be hesitant if it happened here in the good old US of A).

Having said that as well, it is also my experience that Renaissance MA, including unarmed, are very effective. Join ARMA or start a group of your own, practice and train ernestly, and you will see and notice the results.


-----------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
ARMA Sr. Free Scholar
Director - ARMA Southside Houston

[CoreyGray]

I have been considering biting the time investment and gas money to train in Krav Maga just because it is exactly what I need. I could snag some books-on-CD or other courses (such as some language courses) so as not to lose the time.

Thanks for the concern over my safety guys. However, there is one thing you are missing. The foundation of my interest in knighthood is the code of chivalry. When I hear a scream, I am not thinking "Cool! A chance to get in a fight!" because, honestly, I hate fighting. What I think when I hear a scream is "ACK! Someone needs help!"

For me, there is no debate. I would much rather say "I died trying to help another person" than say "I lived a long, cowardly life." Of course, "I survived my hero complex" is the best option.

On another topic, right now I am working on my general fitness as well. Every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday I spend 30-40 minutes walking up a steep hill with a backpack full of books. Soon, that will increase to every Monday through Friday. Eventually, I will start driving and then I will do 5k on the treadmill everyday to make up for it. I did that before going to school and gradually increased my pace to build endurance.

For strength, I just finished week two of my work on the Bowflex. Nothing too impressive. My routine currently consist of incline bench press, flies, reverse press, row, roman chair, shoulder press, curls, pull downs, push down, leg extenstions, and leg curls. The first week was at 10lbs of resistance on each side to learn the motions. This week was at 20lbs on each side. Next week I will try 30lbs.

For flexibility... I'm not sure. My arms and shoulders are extremely flexible thanks to my being double-jointed there. My legs are extremely tight. So tight I can not touch my toes.

Does this sound like a good developing routine? Any other suggestions? My goal is to be literally 'fighting fit.' Hmmm... I've noticed that exercising is a lot easier now that I have a specific goal in mind.

What about training just using my body weight? When I travel, I will not have access to equipment and I want to stay in shape. I've heard mixed reviews on this method and where to find good exercises.

Oh, and I sent in my application to join ARMA long ago. Unfortunately, something is up with the processing and I still haven't been accepted. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> I hear its being worked on though.

[James_Knowles]

For me, there is no debate. I would much rather say "I died trying to help another person" than say "I lived a long, cowardly life." Of course, "I survived my hero complex" is the best option.

This needs to be tempered by wisdom. Nobody advocates turning a blind eye as did Kitty Genovese's neighbours, and people like the hero Mark Wilson have saved lives while sadly losing their own.

Walking away from an active assault is criminal. Avoiding potential trouble is not cowardace but prudence. That's what I get from other comments. Life will present enough trouble without one needing to seek it out. That's making oneself a vigilante or a demonstration of a low self-esteem -- the need to be a hero. Neither of these are characteristics of the idealized chivalry that you mention. It is, rather, a low type of cowardice.

Stay attuned to your surroundings always, and walk away from potentially compromising situations. If your gut says no, listen. That's neither cowardace nor unchivilrous.

Also consider some good firearms training, not for the gun handling but for learning about being sensitive your environment, handling lethal situations, and legal issues of rushing in as a hero.

As an ordinary citizen I carry a concealed sidearm whenever I'm out of the house. The one place I cannot carry, I'll take my ordinary stout large umbrella. It has a good-sized metal cap several inches long, is very stiff, and when used with powerful half-swording thrusts, can put a serious dent in my wooden pell.

It's no substitute for focusing on ringen, but I'll take any supplement that I can train with.