Films more generaly.

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M Wallgren
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Films more generaly.

Postby M Wallgren » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:29 pm

I post this here as an offshoot from the LOTR tread. Why does Hollywood always stupify their audiens as soon as they are going to make a film that as some "historical" touch to it? It´s not only the swordplay and fighting, the story with very few exeptions always are simplified in a pointless way, carracters to often behave in "modern" ways and have modern ideals and belives.

As a member of ARMA and aspiring swordsman this is almost offending, and for the work we do and the public understandig of it, it´s near devestating.

Sorry for the grumpy attitude guy´s but I needed to get it out <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Craig Peters
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Craig Peters » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:25 pm

I think the answer to your question is that there are several problems. First of all, there's still quite a bit of general ignorance on this subject. There's quite a lot of people who would still be very surprised to learn that the supposedly lost knightly arts were actually recorded down in many instances by late medieval and Renaissance masters.

The second is apathy. One of the biggest problems is that the average movie-goer just doesn't care about the realism of a sword fight. Certainly, I know that the rest of my family doesn't particularly take notice to it, but after reading the ARMA's essays, watching some of the videos and trying out the strikes and movements myself, one cannot help but flinch at a lot of the stuff in movies. However, most movie-goers are entertained by flashy movies that "look cool" and thus they really like the spins, the suicidal press, the sword easily hacking through plate, etc, because aesthetically it looks exciting. The problem, of course, is that to anyone with some experience, the things that are supposed to look cool end up looking really fake and unimpressive. But this is still a minority part of the audience.

The third reason is ease of filming. The ARMA techniques, when used properly, are inherently dangerous and require excellent timing, distance and perception to be well executed. In many cases, people making movies probably don't want to spend months trying to train a person in Western martial arts. There is the difficulty in finding someone competent to teach it, and there's also the difficulty that it takes quite a long time before the actor becomes skilled enough that they could pass for a period swordsman. And, as I mentioned, the dangerous nature of many techniques, such as trying to void a Zornhau that is executed with intensity, means that Hollywood will have a much easier time if it just stays within the bounds of established swordsfighting.

The other thing that John points out in the Appendix B of Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods and Techniques, is that by its very nature, fighting is about being cautious so one is not struck, trying to feint or deceive the opponent and then strike them with force, while stage combat is coreographed, routine, and above all else, tries to avoid actual injury occurring. Because of this, as John further notes, the vast majority of strikes and techniques must be excluded due to the danger of injury or inexperience of the actors.

There are no doubt other reasons why this occurs in films, but I think these are the three principle reasons.

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Casper Bradak
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Casper Bradak » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:24 pm

I don't think danger is an excuse for most of it. In some of the latest star wars movies for example, they fough well out of range for safety, and used a computer to slide them into range when they were striking.
Those certainly don't seem to be problems in old fashioned Kurosawa films either.
And there's no lack of flashy (yet effective) technique in the manuals. And it can always be drawn out for show stuch und bruch.
So from what I hear, it's mostly a pure ignorance and misunderstanding of the subject and cliqueish goup that is able to choreograph fights in the first place.
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Jake_Norwood
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:41 pm

People tend to go with what they can get away with.

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Allen Johnson
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Allen Johnson » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:49 pm

I agree with alot of the point. I know that for the majority of films, the actors have a really short amount of learn how to "fight". Most films less than a month. When I choreographed 2 duels for an inde film this summer I have a total of 6 hours ( three two hour sessions over 2 weeks) to train these guys who had never held a sword in thier life. So a fight director may know lots of really good stuff but is rushed into taking shortcuts and cheating and covering bad form up with camera tricks.
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby JeffGentry » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:07 am

Hey Allen

Did you ever get to see the film, i wish we could see how your stuff came out on the film.


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Craig Peters
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Craig Peters » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:35 pm

Casper,

I don't think one can effectively manipulate film the way they did with Episode One using historical techniques. If you wanted to try and be historical, you'd have to get the actors to really make the strikes, voids, feints, counter strikes, etc. in order for it to work. And herein is what I meant by my initial response: trying to work with these techniques is inherently more dangerous than the current theatrical stagefighting methods, which is one of the reasons limiting its usage.

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Aaron Pynenberg
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:24 pm

Craig has a point, even when we train with say a Zwerchau you have to be careful with it, especially when the other guy has no head protection. Keep in mind as well that these actors usually do not wear head protection as they want to be seen.

I am really pumped about the new movie "Kingdom of Heaven" that looks really cool. I saw a quick trailer the other day though, and still saw a very obvious edge on edge "clang" so I wonder how this one is going to do, I think Hollywood slowly is making them a little better though?
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James Hudec
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby James Hudec » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:58 pm

I am really pumped about the new movie "Kingdom of Heaven" that looks really cool. I saw a quick trailer the other day though, and still saw a very obvious edge on edge "clang" so I wonder how this one is going to do, I think Hollywood slowly is making them a little better though?

I'm hoping it will be good, but I have a sneaking suspicion the battle scenes will probably be a long progression of Return of the King-esque shots of Franks getting bowled over by Saracens, given the director's ideological slant on the story.
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Gene Tausk
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Gene Tausk » Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:41 pm

I think you are mixing apples and oranges. Film directors, fight choreographers, to some extent actors and certainly producers are interested not so much in historical reality, but how to make a film interesting so that people will come to see it. It was said of Louis B. Mayer (of Metro Goldwyn Mayer fame) that "some people make movies to make money; he made money to make movies." Much of what occurs in Hollyweird follows the first principle.

How to you make a film interesting? One way is to make interesting fight scenes. Fight scenes that are flashy, take time on film, show physics-bending moves and show a character's capabilities being "pushed" are generally more exciting to an audience than a fight scene that may be historically realistic, but probably would be less exciting to an uninformed public as to how combat really works. Hence, less people would be interested, and less $$$.

When investors are putting $70M plus into a movie, they want some guarantee that they will get results. Making a "pitch" before a potential investor about fight scenes that "make 'The Matrix' look like your standing still!" have more appeal than "the fight scenes will be based on actual 13th century techiniques based on reconstructions from the time period."

Sometimes such scenes are used when they are not intregal to the plot. I remember the excellent, but briefly released film "Equilibrium" which had fight scenes among principle actors using "gun-kata." It was a good movie without the fight scenes, but it was clear that the MA involved would hopefully help draw audiences who otherwise would not see a movie about a dystopia.

Independent films therefore probably would have more leeway in this area than mainstream movies.

This reminds me of an excellent quote by SSgt. Larsen: "most people are learning how to fight for martial-arts movies, not the real world." Love that.


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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:07 pm

"Fight scenes that are flashy, take time on film, show physics-bending moves and show a character's capabilities being "pushed" are generally more exciting to an audience than a fight scene that may be historically realistic, but probably would be less exciting to an uninformed public as to how combat really works. Hence, less people would be interested, and less $$$."

I am not so sure. I thought the fight scenes from The Hunted (good Kali) and Good Will Hunting (street brawling) were wonderful and they did alright in the box office. Not a high kick or leaping spin in either of those films.

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M Wallgren
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby M Wallgren » Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:43 am

Tanx for your inpt, all of you!

This is a little bit of what I mean. In movies about our contemporary time or at least the last hundred years, one can often see quite good depictions of fights. (Saving Privat Ryan , ID, American History X, and on and on...) This films are also often more "historicaly" correct in general. This given to more recent time and thus easier to research. I understand that, but why not take the time and little money it would take to make the film at least deasently historically correct. I mean Films like Breaveheart is a good movie a good plot but has little to do with the historical William Wallice. My point is that if the films doesn´t manage to get things like that Emperor Commodus (Gladiator) reigned for 11 years right, they wont get the fighting desent.

But there is good examles thou of how a fight can be depicted in a good way, the Indiana Jonesish fight at the tavern in Rob Roy is fantastic. And realistic. Ive seen a couple of fights in my life and the ones with a clear winner have often been the ones where the winner have control over the situation and the winner take the initiative and finish very fast. This is what makes the bouncer job tricky, the way you got to have a "fylen" on the crowd. (Been a bouncer as an extra income for some years.)

Sorry for the rambling, got of track.

I do realize we won´t make a great difference by debating this on this forum, but then again, we are consumers of film and we know what we want to se!!

Have a brilliant day, I have 18 below celcius and bright sunshine here, perfect drilling weather.
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:26 pm

I dont think it's too dangerous. As Caspar pointd out, Kirosawa filmed realisitc sword fights without computer graphics back in the 50's and 60's.

I also dont think WMA is less interesting to watch- to the contrary. All the Hong-Kong influenced fighting we have seen since the 70s is starting to look very similar and boring too me, and everyone I know who has seen the ARMA fighting on that clip on the History Channel thought it was really cool to watch. People even like to come out and watch us spar in our sparring group!

What I think needs to be done is put pressure on them, make fun of them. I do think there is a cadre of fight coreogrephers etc. who keep things a certain way, but I also think they will respond to media pressure.

The popular cultures of fighting has been very influenced by computer games and D&amp;D... maybe this will change for the better now that Jakes game "Riddle of Steel"

Prsonally though I think ARMA would be well served to make semi-humorous comments about movies, especially those like say the recent King Arthur flick which claim to be realisitc...

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Patrick Hardin
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Re: Films more generaly.

Postby Patrick Hardin » Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:27 pm

Another movie that I think does OK fighting is Troy. I mean, yes they do some edge banging, and some of it is flashy, and you can't expect to fight for long with bronze swords without them getting bent, but they did do some stuff good. For one thing, the characters are actually using their shields to defend themselves, even in a one-on-one fight. And for another, They use spears a lot, which is much more fitting for the time the movie is set in. Also, I really liked the precision of Brad Pitt's movements on screen. He actually looked and carried himself like a trained fighter. In addition to this, I actually noticed one or two actual longsword techniques that I have been taught used in the movie fighting, only with different weapons.

Has anyone looked at the special features on the DVD? They have a segment on the combat, and they talk about how they "didn't want it to look like martial arts," they wanted it to actually look like fighting. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> They also mention about how the actors are actually swinging their swords in the vicinity of each other's heads, something that most movie makers never do for safety's sake. I think Troy shows there is the potential for Hollywood to start moving in the right direction.

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