The 12 Rules

Old Archived Discussions on Specific Passages from Medieval & Renaissance Fencing Texts


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TimSheetz
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Re: The 12 Rules - rule 12

Postby TimSheetz » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:59 pm

This rule also affects training within your group...

I remember the frustration at having an individual who would just not get it and would cringe at almost any offensive action against her. Closes caused a sort of cringe/duck/kneel down sort of action... And this was in drills, not free sparring! Better for all that she move on.
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John_Clements
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Re: The 12 Rules - rule 12

Postby John_Clements » Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:37 pm

There's also the old Norse tale of how youths that flinched were not trained and all that, as well as the "what hurts, teaches" saying in the German school.
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Re: The 12 Rules - #3

Postby Rey Garcia » Mon May 23, 2005 11:16 am

Hi john .
I agree ( Strike and move at the same time ) coodination in attackwith hands and feet.
( place your feet against each other.) Could also mean to have equal and opposing tension in your legs so you can explosively move . Just a thought I agree it is rather vague.
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Sean_Gallaty
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Re: The 12 Rules - #3

Postby Sean_Gallaty » Tue May 24, 2005 10:09 am

I think the meaning here is clear on the first part, to coordinate your body movement (foot, hip, arm, weapon) for maximum power in your blow. You can't "strike then move" or vice versa, after all. The second part on feet against one another could mean literally heel to heel as is known in one kind of quick or false step, or it could be poor wording/translation that means to simply have your feet coordinated so that you pass.



Something you might find interesting from another martial art, Sashinryu. They have a technique called 'star step' in which the moving foot is brought to the nonmoving foot and then moved to the position it's intended to go in, always kept near the ground or even dragged along the ground so that both feet can be put on the ground at any time if needed.

The feet together is an offbalance transitional position but it permits a very wide number of movements from that position to any other, it's less predictable.

There's also somethnig known as the "thief step" or "rogues step", let me do some looking on this. It's walking by bringing the rear leg up to the front one and then moving the front one foward to step - you can test this yourself, the benefit is that your center of gravity remains between your feet at all times.

Unfortunately, footwork is something so basic and critical that these masters probably felt it was common knowledge and so it's not treated in depth, even though really it's the basis of all power =/
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Jake_Norwood
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Re: The 12 Rules - #3

Postby Jake_Norwood » Tue May 24, 2005 10:26 am

Sean-

The "Theif's step" you refer to is called a Broken step, a stolen step, or a false step. The masters did cover that one. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Sean_Gallaty
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Re: The 12 Rules - #3

Postby Sean_Gallaty » Tue May 24, 2005 3:40 pm

Thank you, I've just started reading and I have no familiarity with the texts.
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Mike_McGurk
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Re: The 12 Rules - rule 12

Postby Mike_McGurk » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:05 am

I think perhaps this rule doesn't apply today, unless one intends to engage in mortal combat (something that everyone here strongly discourages, with good reason). The fear of broken bones, burst lacerations and bruises is easily conquered once one accepts the fact that one will eventually be hit by a waster - I have a scar under my nose from it - and will quite possibly be stained green in addition to receiving rock shaped indentations. I believe that all of the afore mentioned germanic practices were simply designed to weed out those who were likely to be intimidated by live steel coming at them with the intent of parting flesh and bone from its person. Such a fear would likely interfere with one's ability to become detatched in combat and then thought might sink in. Such fear isn't easily conquered, a contrast to that of nonlethal injuries inflicted by one who does not intent to kill.
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Derrick Berrier
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Re: The 12 Rules #4

Postby Derrick Berrier » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:08 pm

As a novice, I was wandering the meaning of, "In des"? Thank you in advance for helping the lost.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: The 12 Rules #4

Postby Brian Hunt » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:44 am

Indes roughly translates as simultaneously, during, in the middle. You have 3 times in the german texts. vor (before), nach (after), and indes (during). These are the actions that your strike may take, before your opponents, after your opponents or during your opponents. Vadi, and Italian master referred to a similar principle as mezzo tempo (half time) and said it was the jewel of the art.

hope this helps.

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Derrick Berrier
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Re: The 12 Rules #4

Postby Derrick Berrier » Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:58 am

Thank you for your reply, it was very helpful.

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jeremy pace
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Re: The 12 Rules #4

Postby jeremy pace » Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:24 pm

I think for myself i have discovered mezzo tempo and agree completely with the statement. People are so used to moving as fast and deliberate that when you change speeds/tempo on them its kind of like throwing a slow pitch. The problem i am facing is teaching it.
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