The antiquity of techniques?

[James Hudec]

I was wondering exactly how far back the skills and techniques in the fechtbuchs date.

I.33 dates from 1295, doesn't it, but how much further back in time would these skills have been in existence?

[steve hick]

James, I don't know, most of what I have seen so far are works that reinforce that technique like in I.33 is reflected in art works from then through the 14th century, but then, I've not looked for anything earlier.

Of hand, I cannot think of anyone working in the area of analysis of pre1300 material in literature or iconography. Ray Smith did his dissertation some 15 years ago on some of this, but its way out of date other wise. I've just gotten a work on 12th century swordplay

SCHWIETERING, Julius, Zur Geschichte von Speer und Schwert im 12.Jahrhundert. Hamburg, Gräfe und Sillem 1912.

That covers works well prior to this, but not having translated it yet, my skimming shows mostly use of the sword with two hands with the war shield over the shoulder, etc., and no buckler.

I'll ask around.

Steve

[John_Clements]

We have an article on this in preparation. Iconographic evidence shows it apparently in use from the 10th century.

JC

[Jeffrey Hull]

Personally, I think that sword & buckler was practiced by the English and the Irish perhaps as early as the 8th-9th CentAD.

But I cannot prove this definitively, just going by indicators from various sources.

One could conjecture that if the Irish and Britons of the Bronze Age were using flanged-tang dirks or skeans, thus "rapiers" of a sort, as maintained by Oakeshott's "Archaeology of Weapons", then one could argue that a foining fencing, with blade alone or combined with a small shield (aka buckler), was known and used sometimes well before the rapier fencing of the Renaissance, even if the antiquarian techniques never survived to influence the later.

JH

[steve hick]

There is a piece of artwork "sword dance" that is in Castle. I've just not gone backwards much--so waiting for John's article. I asked around, everyone offered info AFTER 1295. The Spear and Sword book I have covers using the sword two handed, but nothing on bucklers.
Steve <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Jeffrey Hull]

Regarding possibility of early (pre-1300 AD) bucklers:

First idea: An example of a plausible bucklers would be archaeological finds of certain Anglo-Saxon "bosses" which still have handle intact, unremarkable in itself -- yet some of these handles do not span beyond the girth of the "boss" itself, as would usually be desired to span across the back of the board of a larger shield, thus ending in spatulates. Hence one may ask why such a "boss" is not actually a "buckler". Certain admittedly stylised MS illustrations from this culture also suggest little shields wielded by swordsmen specifically.

Second idea: Various versions of Irish "Tain Bo Cuailnge" suggest a variety of shields in all sorts of shapes and sizes. They describe them, ranging from very large to small (just how small?), and sometimes as crinkled or scalloped edged (not unlike Talhoffer 1467 bucklers) -- the problem being that the tales which comprise this epic span anywhere from 300 - 1300 AD.

Third idea: I have not seen this myself, but a respected fencing authority has related to me that a Spanish source shows bucklers prior to 1200 AD. Perhaps someone knows the source he means?

Just some ideas <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good luck,

JH

[Jay Vail]

I am not qualified to discuss the antiquity of fencing techniques. However, I will say that there appear to be techniques shown on 2300 year old Greek vases that bear a striking (no pun intended) resemblance to certain messer techniques of Talhoffer and Durer.

I can say with certainty that grappling techniques that are identical to those found in ringen and judo are depicted on 2500 year old Greek vases. There are also bronze statutes depicting armlocks similar to those shown in Talhoffer from 2000 years ago. Whether there is continuity is a matter for debate, however. I like to think there is, but there is no proof as yet to support this belief.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hello Allz,

I will have no evidence for my opinion, so it will remain an opinion.

I don't think swords were ever used as clubbs. The better fighter survived - and father taoght son anyway. What I want to say with this is, that you could, say, travel back in time some 4000 years and would find the same 8 cuts, with body motion that would be like that of medieval swordsplay.

We know of very old glyphs and pics from various sorces like Egypt or Peru, not to mention India or Turkey. And if you think about all the things that once were well-known, then forgotten and re-invented after a couple of hundred years, I feel that it's simply natural that martial arts were known and practiced throughout the ages and forgotten again.

greetings and happy easter,

Szabolcs
Order of the Sword Hungary

[James Hudec]

We have an article on this in preparation. Iconographic evidence shows it apparently in use from the 10th century.

Great! I look forward to it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />