Wended-Hand Means Flat-Use

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hey Guys:

Well, for those who just cannot seem to get enough of this invigorating subject, I would like to offer even more generally overlooked proof from two Renaissance sources regarding blade-flat use.

Note again that Talhoffer (1467 AD) in his falchion (messer) part, where plate 226 shows clearly use of blade-flat by technique of *gewenter hand* or *wended-hand* during versetzen -- see Rector's book for that. This is much like his *epicher hand* or *ebbing-hand* (as per another post).

For those unfamiliar, Talhoffer was a true Fechtmeister, being the master-of-arms for the army of Prinz Koenigsegg. He wrote and edited as many as seven different fight-books over a period of 20 to 30 years in the 15th Cent AD. His tradition is in that of Liechtenauer.

Wended-hand and/or flat use seems corroborated repeatedly by Duerer (1512 AD) in his fightbook's falchion part. Note his plates 05, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26 (which portrays same conflict as Talhoffer's 226 from different angle), 27, 29, 42, 43, 49 and 50. Although we are unsure what Duerer called it, he does portray it similarly to Talhoffer. You can see this part starting at here:

http://digital.lib.msu.edu/collections/index.cfm?action=view&TitleID=28&Format=gif&PageNum=144

For those unfamiliar, Duerer is one of the greatest artists ever who was undoubtedly acqauinted with coeval fencing in some manner. He wrote and illustrated the first book in German about artistic portrayal of accurate perspective based upon math and geometry, *Underweysung der Messung*. His unfinished fechtbuch, which shares much in common with *Codex Wallerstein* (1470-1500 AD), was personally commissioned by his Kaiser.

So in other words, these two men stand as what we call true historical authorities -- despite whatever weak dismissals and canards certain dubious modern sabre-masochistic mensurites, theatrical choreographers, and sport-fencers would try to make.

Combine the advice and illustrations of these real historical authorities with dedicated actual practice of what they advise, and you could find out for yourself the superiority of blade-flat use in Renaissance swordsmanship.

Good luck,

JH

[George Turner]

Well Jeff, what about the one at the bottom of this page?

page 147

Quite clearly against a downward blow you're supposed to perform an edge-stop at the half-sword, with your blade held under your chin. They're always swinging at your shoulder, I tell ya, always...

[Casper Bradak]

In practice, that's certainly not an edge stop. It doesn't even hit the edge. That would bring the point off line, and allow him to twitch.
It's a strike with the flat against his downward blow (shown mid-movement), from which he will often eat your point from his own movement. It also makes it single time, or one movement, rather than two, as it would be with the edge. And I certainly wouldn't want to "catch" his blow to my head under my chin.
Granted, that's an interpretation, but it'll beat your edge stop every time <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey George

Quite clearly against a downward blow you're supposed to perform an edge-stop at the half-sword

actualy if you go back and look at the fighter on the left, look at his feet in relation to the fighter on the right, the guy on the left has step offline(voided) the cut, and has went to a "halfsword" to thrust it is very cleary that it is not a stop thrust it is a void and thrust.

From reading some of the post from the other thread and now this one it seem's to me when people read some of the manuel's if it doesn't explicitly say step left or right people assume you are supposed to stand there.

Also we need to remember that in "sport" fencing the foot work is linear mainly forward and back if i'm not mistaken.
So with that in mind, that will color there idea of how they need to move, linear to me is a straight line from me to you no matter what the angle of your body is.
When you attach a string to a pole and hold the end no matter were you go there will be a straight line that is linear so your attack's are alway's linear.

Didn't John write an article called "core Assumption's"?


Jeff

[George Turner]

Exactly Jeff. I was using a bit of humor.

People can glance at the manuals and see lots of what look like edge-stops or other familiar moves that upon closer inspection don't make sense under that interpretation. Frankly, why would you even draw one if you used it? You could just say "For attacks 1a through 67b just stand there and hold your blade out firmly, stopping it thusly so with the edge, according to the rule of the sword monkey." That wouldn't really require a manual, would it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey George

That bit of humor went right over my head. lol


Jeff

[Casper Bradak]

Lol likewise, that sounds too much like something someone would say and mean...

[Matt Bailey]

http://digital.lib.msu.edu/collections/index.cfm?action=view&amp;TitleID=28&amp;Format=gif&amp;PageNum=147

Anyone else notice something odd about this picture? The left fencers nails are clearly facing the viewer, yet his true edge seems to be facing downwards, instead of upwards, as one would expect. Probably just an artistic glitch.

[George Turner]

No, I'll bet that's real, if you're talking about the top image. I'll venture that when he put his left hand on the blade he grabbed so the flat would push into his palm, then he's rolled his right hand around to match, into pretty much a thumb-grip, so that his wrist isn't torqued over.

And thanks to Tim Merritt for the image he sent!

[Jeffrey Hull]

George,

You could interpret that picture that way, but I just tend to agree with Casper and Jeff G.

By the way, funny little picture there of the *sword-hound* <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

JH