Punch-drunk knights?

[Zach Palfreyman]

Anyone seen or heard of historical counts of medieval warriors getting punch-drunk? To clarify, I don't mean temporarily dazed, but permanent damage caused by getting hit repeatedly in the head. Also not to be confused with getting hit with a particulary nasty head-shot that caused permanent damage, but a bunch of hits that by themselves caused no real harm, but when added in total did (like Ali and other boxers).

The thought came to me awhile ago while thinking about vintage bare-fist boxing. Then it just kind of led to knights who might have got brain damage this way, and if it might have been common enough that it was something fighters would know about. ATM I'm thinking its probably only common for unarmed fighting, cause getting hit in the head with a weapon enough times to go punch-drunk is probably small (I'm guessing that the odds are if you've taken that many hits, chances are a few killing blows would be among them).

[M Wallgren]

Thinking about how common Warhammers, clubs and morningstars an such was, it´s not a bad question. Those were made to damage the head often without penetrating the helmets. If one got hit hard enough in the head the brain would "bounce" around in the skull and knock out the fighter.

[Stacy Clifford]

I kind of wonder about training accidents too. A waster will definitely ring your bell, and we don't know what safety rules they had in place in the training halls back then. I think our common assumption is they had fewer qualms about banging each other around back then than we do now. Certainly we have indications that freeplay was a lot rougher, with the occasional death and crippling injury happening in prizings. Still, I would think the principle would have been in effect that training shouldn't hurt so much that it prevents you from winning a real fight in the street the next day.

[Matt Bailey]

I doubt it was common. In boxing, you're going to get hit in the head alot, even if you are Ali. In battle or training with a sword, there is certainly the potential for all sorts of greivous injuries, but the sort of numerous cumulative non-deadly head blows boxers take? Sounds improbable. It seems to me that if you were getting hit in the head that often in battle, you would probably be dead, and if in training, you would be considered incompetent.

BTW, "punch-drunkeness" as we know it was apparently very rare in the pre-glove era. The boxing glove may reduce the damage done to the facial flesh and bones, but it also adds weight to the fist, thereby increasing the shock vibrations that are actually transmitted to the brain.
Cheers,
Matt

[Matthew_Anderson]

Well I don't know about the "punch drunk" thing but I'm sure any man who trained and fought in close combat for any length of time had his share of injuries. I know I am usually nursing sore fingers, strains, bruises, etc. and fencers in period were doubtless tougher and and more violent in their bouting than we are.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I think you have to look at which parts of the body get wear in free sparring. Boxers get dain bramage <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> from being hit in the head too much over years. I haven't heard of many judo players with brain damage. But lots of old judo guys are crippled with bad knees and hips from randori. And Aikido people with wrist arthritis from years of being thrown by their wrists. So, what parts of your body take the abuse from WMA over time? Any long term RMA folks out there who can speak to this?

[John_Clements]

Nope. Not run across anything in my research.

JC

[Casper Bradak]

I second that. It's a rare thing before gloves, and even then, it's pretty much the area of professional hand/sport fighters. In combat I think getting your head clubbed squarely would've been too rare, and ultimately end in death or nothing.
I doubt the training back then was much rougher than what we do now, given the needs of training and medical care. Back then, you'd get a lump or broken finger just the same, putting you out of training and maybe work to heal, and less chance of a proper set.
Worse training injuries? I believe that. Very skilled and very competitive guys using a great deal of intent (with blunts usually), no foam and no head protection. Accidents will happen, especially in the prize playings where it's less learn and more compete.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

In addition I wonder about sports nutrition, I have heard of accounts of knights and squires training for 8-10 hours a day?
I am sure that they were much tougher than we are today but I am equally sure they did not have a gatorade stand set up anywhere near the training field. Anybody know if anything exists about the eating habits of these guys?

[Brian Hunt]

Talhoffer discusses this in one of his manuals, I will see if I can find my translation of that part and post it later.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Casper Bradak]

Eating is discussed in some chivalric manuals as well. They certainly knew about healthy diet and exercise.

[Jay Vail]

BTW Brian, I am indebted to you for your translation of Talhoffer 1459. Very helpful in my dagger research.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jay,

I am glad it has been of value to you. It is an interesting manual, especially since it cronicles an actual dual to the death.

enjoy.

Brian Hunt
GFS.