New Longsword sparring clips

[JeanryChandler]

Thanks Jeanry,

I was doing some study on the weight/PoB's effect on longsword techniques,

It definately makes a difference IMO, fighting that fast with the heavy longsword takes a lot out of you. The day we did these clips was an intense day for us, I had a lot of muscle pain in my shoulders and arms afterword for like two days (good kind). We were intentionally trying to ramp up the intensity.

anywy it seems that you guys are getting much, much better than before.

Thanks!

Seems that the mass doesn't matter much for you guys.

No, it does matter. Our longer, heavier swords are only a few ounces heavier than the our light ones (48-50" and 3 lbs 4 -6 ounces vs 44-46" and 2 lbs 8-12 ounces) but the heavier ones take much more out of you and are much harder to keep up speed with. We often find ourselves slowing down. I'm trying to make an intermediate weapon somewhere between the two types because the longer ones have the advantage of power and reach while the shorter are much better in speed and agility, especially in follow up attacks. We are also experimenting with our blunts. This is something we are still trying to figure out for sure.[/quote]

I did saw those hangen seems to hold up very, very well. It's strange to me as I am barely able to use hangen successfully...

to me it comes naturally, but it cant be done against every opponent. unless they are striking oberhau a lot, it's not going to come into play.

One issue with hangen, is to get good at transitioning into it (or into an ox guard) quickly without telegraphing it. You can wait in plow or tag and transition to hangen when needed... also a passing step is frequently helpful, especially offline or toward your opponent.

I dont know hangen is something we did before we knew WMA so it might be more instinctive to us, but I think it's fairly simple and I teach it to new people all the time. it might be that your opponents are just not giving you good opportunities to use it. Sometimes I might go 20 or 30 bouts without ever using a hangen...

I do advice everyone to grip the pommel... seems Lenny did that.

We do, if you look at the first series between Skip and I, I am grasping the pommel sometimes, it depends what I'm intending to do. I also use the single hand sling-cuts sometimes as lance has noticed in some other clips.

What's the talking about "Hong Kong" in that clip ?

That was me, commenting on Lennys false edge cut to the wrist, I was pointing out it is one of Lance Chan's favorite techniques. You guys are celebrities in New Orleans, we all watch your sparring clips and learn a great deal from them. I know Skip in particular is a big fan of lances site and wants to try out his weapons.

Also a suggestion here : Try to practise some walk back counter than having every bout to have both guys crashed in,

I'm not sure what you mean there, can you explain?

more on timing and distining will be nice too... be sure to try out one handed strike from longsword if you want some reach advantage...

I think you mean voiding ? We do that as well, but more so in less aggressive fighting...

Jeanry

[Jake_Norwood]

Maybe I'm not just seeing them cause of the shortened clips, but I'd like to see some more relentless attacks. One thing I know about fighting is amateurs tend to go in, exchange a few blows, then pull out to regroup. The truely skilled fighter will go in and throw down 5 or more attacks, not including any blocks or dodging he might have to do. Reading your opponent is obviously one of the most important skills of fighting, both personal combat and large-scale battles. The longer of combo you string together, the harder it becomes for your opponent to read you, and you have a much better chance of getting that killing blow through. This is of course harder in practice then it sounds, but that is what I would recommend working toward.

While I agree wholeheartedly that this is a fault many of us have--resutling mostly from temerity--attacking 5 times in succession is on the verge being "plain wrong" in the eyest of masters from Lichtenaeuer to Meyer. Both encourage relentlessness, but also warn against striking more than 4 blows in succession without withdrawing.

In practice, we will sometimes run drills where once you enter the fight and swords are swinging no one stops attacking, defending, etc. until the match is over--no hopping out to regroup or play sword tag. OTOH, when we fight in earnest, not in drill, we need to not over-commit ourselves.

Jake

[Alfred Wong]

Hello Jeanry,

Not only in your place - here in Hong Kong Lance is one of the best swordsman. I do agree this - keep looking at the RSW first page for the update in weekly gathering and you will see a lot of treasure.

I mean - well, try to practise more those step back and counter (Skip did it once, as I can remember), like, if someone strike to you, you do a void and step backward, while your leg is reaching the ground, at the same moment you shall hit your opponent. With all timing right and distaning okay, you will be able to deliever a really good stopping counter without mutual death, Lance, together with other people in the group, did this oftenly.

Weight - I am using a 4lbs, ~1.75 inches PoB (wow, short) longsword right now (Modelled after the Svante of Albion)... if okay I will take my last flourysch video later today, if not then tomorrow. You can check the post I wrote at the second page (for now). The sword, while I was at my "nearly" full speed, does consume my stamina out quick. But the leverage does help me in doing continuous strike as you can see. I think it's a upper limit for me, I can barely do single handed lunge or cut with it. But I will say : A heavy sword can do quick things if it has a close PoB and long handle. The German BS of A&A (~4.5 lbs, ~3.5 inches PoB) was out of my critical limit and does distort techniques of longsword (even when Lance and Ben using it - check out videos at RSW). While the Durer BS of A&A (~3 lbs, 4.125 inches PoB) is good, Brescia Spadona of Albion (3lbs 4 oz, ~3.5 PoB) was a very nice sword too. But for false edge cuts the Svante is fantastic, due to the 13 inches leverage gained. And I will say, an inch is an inch, gripping the pommel will differ the speed and force LOTS. Although closer the hands will feel like that it's easier to handle... I am still studying about these interesting relationship. Do you have any idea to share?

Also - train more to prevent muscle from being pulled and fatigue will be nice. I didn't read all discussions about the 5 cuts thing, just want to say, from my own experience, I found that sometimes one must stop attacking when the opponent had retreated out from attack range. Or the opponennt can instantly strike back while one is in recovery of the continuous attack.

Best regards,
Alfred <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Lance Chan]

Hey, Jeanry, checked out all the clips. I think many things are mentioned by the others and I only have 1 thing to add:

Attack where the opening is, not where the opponent's defending.

I think the high successful rate of the hanging guard was partly due to the opponent can see the guard but somehow decided to still go at it anyway... It's so obvious in the Chris vs Skip clip. Openings are at the knee, underside of elbow... but somehow the guy still keep cutting at the sword... why?

BTW, if you're interested in seeing my fight last week, here you are:

http://lancelot.servehttp.com/lancelot2.zip

The first one was a katana user who was quite experienced.

Second one was a German style swordsmanship practitioner using a sword heavier and longer than mine.

Third one is my student, using a two handed Chinese Jian at the time of sparring. (I got my ass kicked a lot)

p.s. BTW I dun think I"m anywhere close to "best" here in HK. I got my ass kicked often by some others.

[Lance Chan]

http://lancelot.servehttp.com/lancelot.zip

This one is 1 week earlier where I fought against a 2-weapons guy... kinda pushed me to the limit. Used a lot of Kron...

[M Wallgren]

Attack where the opening is, not where the opponent's defending.

I think the high successful rate of the hanging guard was partly due to the opponent can see the guard but somehow decided to still go at it anyway... It's so obvious in the Chris vs Skip clip. Openings are at the knee, underside of elbow... but somehow the guy still keep cutting at the sword... why?

Very good point Lance!

I experienced the same dilemma and I think it could have to do with thinking to much on what technic to use instead of just do. If one get stuck it technic thinking in sparring that fenomena become common. It often happens to me when I sparr with less experienced fighters who rely on instinct and I get a little cocky thinking I will get them with this fancy thing I just picked up.

[Lance Chan]

I think doing TONS a lot of solo drills on a particular technique so that it no longer requires one to think of it when in need helps to achieve the "just do it" effect.

Right now there are several moves I still have to think of before I can execute and they are having the lowest rate of successful execution. Hhaha Still have to practice more.

[M Wallgren]

Yep, and lots of sparring.

and then mor drilling, in absurdum...

we will never be get there but the road is fun, LOL.

[M Wallgren]

Here´s a little clip with Halfsword-sparring...

http://www.arma.se/Film/JOCKEvsMARTIN.MOV


(And Joachim and I do NOT take any responsability for the other guys attemt to sing.)

[Joachim Nilsson]

I'd like to add a small disclaimer: The below average form Martin and I are displaying in the clip is due to both of us having suffered a four month hiatus from any serious training. In other words, what you see here is more or less the first combative thing done with sword in hand in a very long time for us. That also explains why the distance in waaay off. Those fencing masks become quite a hassle when one is not used to wearing one. I'd like to return later with better clips once we're back in shape. I am, quite frankly, embarrased at my poor shape and failure to properly commit in my attacks. Too much hesitation. (I'm the guy on the left btw). There: Now I've critically cut myself down. We were basically just taking things slow and just "playing around" due to the long hiatus and wasn't aware we were being filmed. We usually doesn't suck as much as we do in the above clip.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Lance

I think the high successful rate of the hanging guard was partly due to the opponent can see the guard but somehow decided to still go at it anyway

Actualy if hengen is done right your opponent will commit to the cut and you just step a little aside and slide his cut off which in turn will setup your counter.

If you go to hengen before he is committed to his cut and he still cut's at your sword i'd wonder at the inteligence of the opponent.

Like you stated earlier everyone has four opening's why attack the opening that is protected by a ward, go for the open area, whether it is upper left, when they are in right ochs, or lower left when they are in tail.

Just stay away from attacking the sword, I think some of it has to do with people being concerned about getting hit so they try to neutralize the sword by attacking toward's it, instead of moving offline and going for the open area.

Just MO

Jeff

[JeanryChandler]

Lance and Jeff,

Regarding the hangen... like I said, it depends who is doing it and who you are fighting. If you look again at the initial series of skip and I fighting, in all but one bout the hangen appeared as he struck, it was not waiting for him. The one time it was waiting he was trying to open it up and exploit with a double-strike.

There is a krumphau opening in Lichtenaur to break an Ox, which we do sometimes, Skip was probably planning to do that but got confused in the heat of the moment, and it cost him on this occasion.

Skip is a very good fighter though and rarely makes that kind of mistake.

With Chris and Skip, as i mentioned before in the description, Chris is not the most experienced fighter. He has is own unique style which is hard to define, technically it looks really bad and he breaks every rule, but he is still dangerous!

Again though, Hangen isn't something I rely on all the time, it's just one weapon in the arsenal. It can be very effective, as Jeff pointed out, for decisive countering when you are hit with just the right kind of oberhau, and it's even more effective against amateuers or less experienced fighters.

I certainly dont see it as a panacea, it was just used in this series quite often, and I guess Skip and I are both very used to executing this counter when the opportunity does present itself.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

Joachim,

The clips looks a lot better than many of the ones I have posted. We understand that not every moment captured on film is your best moment, the point is to learn from successes as well as mistakes, it's not a contest!

That said I can see a lot of agility and quickness there, though as you say your range is a bit off. You guys are obviously much more advanced at half-swording than we are. If you want to see something clumsy, you should see my one clip of half-swording (i'll see if I can dig it up!)

I'd be afraid to do murder strokes with my standard weapons because they have aluminum cross guards which I think would be dangerous even padded. I may have to make some special weapons for half-swording.

Jeanry

[Joachim Nilsson]

Jeanry,
Thanks for the input. I understand that it's not a contest. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have a tendency to judge myself very harshly though.

The range being off was something I truly noticed when I saw the clip. The direct for this reason is the mesh of the fencing mask. If I haven't worn it in a while I've found that I have a tendency to unconsciuosly focus on the mesh instead of the enemy. It usually takes a couple of sessions for that to wear off.

I agree about the hilts causing problems from time to time. Not shown in the clip is a later session where I smacked Martin across the bony part of his lower arm with the non-padded part of the grip. Needless to say, the sparring ended there.

The other problem I have with using those padded swords (that are featured in the clip) in halfswording sparring is that they are a bit too flexy. They lack the stiffness needed for some of the techniques. We have in the past went at it with wooden wasters. Granted, the thrust becomes really wicked when done with wasters, but the hooking techniques etc. worked great.

We'll return during the late summer/early fall with new, and improved, clips.

Regards,

[JeanryChandler]

It's so obvious in the Chris vs Skip clip. Openings are at the knee, underside of elbow... but somehow the guy still keep cutting at the sword... why?

Well, when watching clips, one reason people dont try certain things is that they may have tried them before and learned that their opponent may be very good at exploiting this particular gambit. Thats why sometimes when you are sitting there biting youre tongue saying "why doesn't he do such and such!" there may be a very good reason..

With Chris though, it has to do more with his rather unique fighting style. His form is bad, he telegraphs terribly, and sometimes makes predictable strikes, but he can hold his own pretty well, on some days he will get all of us. Part of the reason is he tends to show up at the end of the day when he is fresh and we are all worn out from sparring already <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> (He also only spars a few rounds and wont continue after he gets tired..!)

But another reason is a kind of intimidation factor. Chris always fights high- energy... he strikes very powerfully, has a lot of reach, and he tends to hit very hard. His timing and seanse of measure (range) is always very good, deceptively so. Part of the telegraphing he does reminds you of how much of a penalty you are going to pay in terms of pain if his strike lands... you can see this effect visibly in the clips of him and lenny and him and skip. Thats part of the reason Lenny keeps backing away, and you can see Skip actually flinch and hesitate from a strike in anticipation of a crushing blow in the second series of bouts between them. Chris has had the same effect on me as well sometimes.

I've discussed this intimidation factor before, most people claim to be immune to it. But I think it is real. It doesn't mean you are a coward, it just means sometimes it takes a bit more "uumf!" to get yourself into a real fighting mode, into that level of fight or flight energy, especially if you have kind of relaxed into a standard sparring state of mind, with opponents you are comfortable with.

I may beat him or I may not, but I'm never "comfortable" sparrring with Chris. With him it always feels like a for real street fight, if you get comfortable, you are going to get a stinging smashed shoulder or bruised forearm to remind you not to relax too much in a fight. That is one of the reasons I really ike having him as a member of our group, he keeps us "honest".

Do you know what I mean? Anyone in your group who has this effect?

Jeanry