George Silver Cap 3 Begin

[Guest]

Scholars,

Let us continue our research of George Silver 's Brief Instructions Upon his Paradoxes of Defense, Cap 3.

Cap. 3.

1. Open fight is to carry your hand and hilt aloft above your head, either with point upright, or point backward, which is best, yet use that, which you shall find most apt, to strike, thrust, or ward.

2. Guardant fight in general is of 2 sorts, the first is true guardant fight, which is either perfect or imperfect.

The perfect is to carry your hand & hilt above your head with your point down towards your left knee, with your sword blade somewhat near your body, not bearing out your point but rather declining it a little towards your said knee, that your enemy cross not your point & so hurt you, stand bolt upright in his fight, & if he offers to press in then bear your head & body a little backward.

The imperfect is when you bear your hand & sword hilt perfect high above your head, as aforesaid, but leaning or stooping forward with your body & thereby your space will be wide on both sides to defend the blow struck at the left side of your head or too wide to defend a thrust from the right side of the body.

Also it is imperfect, if you bear your hand & hilt as aforesaid, bearing your point too fat out from your knee, so that your enemy may cross, or strike aside your point, & thereby endanger you.

The second is the bastard guardant fight which is to carry your hand & hilt below your head, breast high or lower with your point downward toward your left foot, this bastard guardant ward is not to be used in a fight, except it be to cross your enemy's ward at his coming in to take the grip of him or such advantage, as in divers places of the sword fight is set forth.

3. Close fight is when you cross at the half sword either above at the forehand ward that is with the point high, & hand & hilt low, or at the true or bastard guardant ward with both your points down.

4. Close is all manner of fights wherein you have made a true cross at the half sword with your space very narrow & not true cross is also close fight.

Variable fight is all other manner of lying not here before spoken of, whereof these 4 that follow are the chiefest of them.

(1) Stocata: which is to lie with your right leg forward, with your sword or rapier hilt back on the outside of your right thigh with your point forward to ward your enemy, with your dagger in your hand extending your hand towards the point of your rapier, holding your dagger with the point upright with marrow space between your rapier blade, & the nails of your dagger hand, keeping your rapier point back behind your dagger hand if possible.

Or he may lie wide under his dagger with his rapier point down towards his enemy's foot, or with his point forward with out his dagger.

(2) Imbrocata: is to lie with your hilt higher than your head, bearing your knuckles upward, & your point depending toward your enemy's face or breast.

(3) Mountanta: is to carry your rapier pommel in the palm of your hand resting it on your little finger with your hand below & so mounting it up a loft, & so to come in with a thrust upon your enemy's face or breast, as of out of the Imbrocata.

(4) Passata: is either to pass with the Stocata, or to carry your sword or rapier hilt by your right flank, with your point directly against your enemy's belly, with your left foot forward, extending forth your dagger forward as you do your sword, with (a) narrow space between your sword& dagger blade, & so make your passage upon him.

Also any other kind of variable fight or lying whatsoever a man can devise not here expressed, is contained under this fight.

Of the short single sword fight against

the like weapon.

[Guest]

VIPERS QUESTION: Foronce i only have one question, can someone explane how far out from the body is perfect and how much farther is imperfect?

[David Kite]

DAVID KITE'S INPUT: Open fight: high guard
Guardant fight; true and perfect: hanging guard
imperfect: leaning too far forward, which could be applied to any fight
Variable fight: anything else

DAVID KITE'S QUESTIONS: Is the bastard guardant fight the low guard, effectively?
In the close fight, are the crossing at the halfswords when the opponents are parrying/deflecting?

Also, Stocata does not to me seem like a very applicable stance, as you wouldn't be able to pass to make your thrust. IMO, it seems to me it should be maybe an imperfect Passata?

David Kite

[Guest]

In my readings of English Martial Arts by Terry Brown, the bastard guard is shown as a low hanging guard used to protect the leg. This is distictly different from the low guard but it serves the same purpose. The advantage I have found to using the bastard guard against a leg cut from the left is that it allows for a quick countercut to the opponents sword arm with a simple snap of the wrist. The power of this counter cut is nothing massive, but after cleaving milk jugs with a wrist snap from the bastard guard I would have to say that this cut would definitely remove a hand.

Patrick Valko

[Guest]

The thing you need to remember about Bastard Guardant is that Silver specifically tells us not to wait in it, it exists simply to allow you to effectively deal with someone who is attemtping to close. His advice against a leg cut is to simply slip the front foot back and cut with the time of the hand into your opponents oncoming wrist.

Take Care

Oz

[Guest]

Agreed, however we may or may not have the luxury of avoidance. As we all know, it is best to void, then deflect and finally block when faced with an attack. If you have no room to retreat to, as if you were in the front line of an assault, you'll need to deflect or block outright. I definitely would not walk forward into a fight holding a bastard guard but I know that it will stop a cut if I need ot transition to it...preferably with a traverse.

[Jared L. Cass]

Concerning the bastard guardant fight.... I would agree that it is a form of low hanging guard. It's kind of difficult to use only words to describe it, so for those of you who own John Clements' "Medieval Swordsmanship," on page 244 second from the top illistration, in my oppinion is an example of the bgf. (except with the point of the sword towards the right foot rather than the left, as Silver states). Silver says, "...this bastard guardent ward is not to be used in a fight, except it be to cross your enemy's ward at his coming in to take the grip of him or such advantage...." Deffinently not a "stand your ground" technique. It seems to me that Silver was stating rather clearly that the bgf was to be used to close distance and "redirect the point." Therefor remaining safe and endangering the opponent.

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Guest]

Patrick,

Agreed, if the space is limited then a lot of Silver's system become much more difficult. He relies heavily on traversing footwork to enable you to gain the true place, however in this instance I don't believe it matters that much. The technique he describes is simply slipping the front foot back to a level with the back foot (no extra space needed) and counter cutting into the oncoming arm of your opponent. It is possiblt to do this effectively against an opponent with a much longer weapon.

Jared,

I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle. BG is not there to allow you to safely close against your opponent. He specifically tells us never to initiate the close except for two specific circumstances. It is there to allow you to effectively deal with your opponent when he attempts to close on you.

Take Care

Oz

[Jared L. Cass]

I believe that what we have here is a perfect example of what John Clements brought up in "Differences" in the Open Research area <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> My interpretation of the two rules you refer to (GSilver2 Chap 6 rule 7?) is that Silver was basically stating that befor deciding to close/grip an opponent, you must be sure of your "place." I don't believe that Silver was saying NEVER to close (in fact he's got a whole chapter on it), just that if you decide to close, keep in mind your Four Governors (specifically 3 and 4). It all depends on how your opponent reacts. If he gives you the chance, take it. But only if it keeps you safe and harms the opponent. As was brought out in the "Differences" discusion, perhaps I'm reading Silver's bastard guardant fight this way because I LIKE to close and my past MA experience encouraged closing. This interpretation of the BGF has so far worked stunningly in sparing. So I'm going to stick with it. But, to each his own. Thanks for making me review my thought process <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Guest]

Hi Jared

You are absolutely right, it is only through discussions like this where people have different views that we can truely learn what it is we are attempting to do. I always enjoy discussing Silver as it is the primary focus for my group.

Closing can be an extremely effective strategy and I would guess that you are more than competent at it, but Silver's works (IMHO) were not aimed at people like yourself. They were aimed at the general populace who would not be as well informed and practised as you.

This is why I think he tells us "Do you never attempt to close or come to grip at these weapons unless it be upon the slow motion or disorder of your enemy," and "Remember that you never attempt the close nor grip but look to his slip, consider what is said in the 8th general rule in the second chapter, &amp; also in the 26th ground of the single sword fight in the 4th chapter." for the simple reason that if you do you lose the advantages you have gained through adhereing to his principle grounds and governors.

Have a good Christmas

Oz (Albion Academy of Armes)

[Jared L. Cass]

In reply to David Kite, "In the close fight, are the crossing at the half swords when the opponents are parrying/deflecting?" Thats the way I understand it (it's worked in sparing)...but I'm a little cloudy there, too. When Silver refers to the "true cross," does he mean any parry/deflecting/binding action? Example: Is my strong against his weak a "true cross"? And, even though it wouldn't be very effective, if at all, would a: my weak against his strong still be a "true cross"?

Also, when Silver refers to "...at the half sword," is that an actual half sword technique, or just a way of describing the distance seperating the opponents? I tend to believe the later. But I just want to be sure. Thanks.

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Guest]

MJ -

I've actually used that technique many times. It works best without armor but with proper balance can be done in armor. I was thinking more on the lines of passing back or stepping back involving both feet. Most of my training is done wearing at least a suit of chain. The first time I tried that tactic of Silvers I forgot to compensate for the added weight and almost lost my balance. <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> That brings an interesting point. Do you feel that what Silver teaches has applications in armored combat? I find his techniques more for unarmored or very lightly armored since he greatly favors dexterity and manuvering in his teachings.

[Guest]

If you ever wish to do an illustrated work on Sylver my pencil is yours, if you will judge I'm good enough.
I've drawn only comics so far.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jared,

A true cross is a crossing of the blades in the most secure fashion possible. This would be forte to forte IMHO (and according to Stephen Hand's interpretation).

The "Half-Sword" refers to a position where the blades are crossed. This usually occurs halfway down the blades. Alot of rapier manuals teach one to engage at the halfsword for mutual security.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jared L. Cass]

Thanks Stuart! That helps....Maybe now Silver will make more sense overall to me. There are certain areas that are easy to understand, but trying to figure out his termanology can be a real trip!

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin