Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

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George Turner
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby George Turner » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:37 pm

Nice one Randall, but a chewed up edge doesn't necessarily harm a sword's utility or value. I mean gosh, I'm sure it'll still fetch $10 down at the flea market. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jon,

You need to pick a bunch of assumptions to analyze Silver - he fails to give some crucial infromation. There is one case where Silver says explicitly to use the edge to parry (two if you count the back.) There are none where he says to use the flat. The Italian styles he despised use the edge, yet he never objects to this. The evidence suggests fairly forceful direct blocks.


Yet that's the only case you find made explicit in Silver, where he's defending the leg, and he specifically cites "the rule of the backsword". Curiously enough Joseph Sweatnam cites exactly the same rule in 1617.

Carrie the edge of thy rapier upward, and downward, for then thou shalt defend a blow upon the edge of thy rapier, by bearing thy rapier after the rule of the Backe-sword, for this is the strongest and surest carriage of him.


And other rapier masters also emphasize that this is the strongest carriage. So this raises a couple of questions. Why did they feel compelled to justify the use and benefits of the edge parry and why did two Englishmen seperated by 18 years and who took opposite positions on the rapier both cite the "rule of the back-sword"? Why not just cite "the rule of the sword"? To me it implies there never was such a rule that applied to anything other than backswords, and that these and other writers had to make explicit an action that people in the period wouldn't naturally assume was the way to parry a blow.

And of course addressing Silver's move specifically; if you position a sword to hit your leg and stick your own sword out to block it you could very well impact forte to forte, to the point where you should take care not to bang knuckles. Further, unless your opponent has been playing way too much golf, the incoming blow is probably not coming in with the blade level (measured by a line drawn perpendicular to the long axis of the blade from a point on the true edge to the opposite back edge, like an airplane rib), it's from a down-right cut with this line of advance sloping down at around 45 degrees. That would make Silver's move most likely a 45 degree oblique forte-forte impact, not a 90 degree forte-foible edge basher. There are, however, interpretations where he'd be blocking closer to his leg, making at forte-foible impact, but then the blade would flex from the obliquity and relieve the impact's pressure spike.

And as a final comment on his move, he says to cast the blade out with both that particular blow and the back-edge version done to the right. If the opposing blade were being completely stopped then casting out would be rather problematic since continuing the arc of Silver's blade's travel would tend to move the opposing blade down his forte to his hilt, not off the end of his blade as "cast out" somewhat implies. If, however, the incoming blow was an oblique impact from a down-right cut then it's still sliding toward his foible and his continued motion could cast it out. We might have to experiment with the possible interpretations and see what happens in the real world at speed, though.

And just to bat cleanup, Matt said

-Four, if "never get a nick in your edge" was ever a commandment of European swordplay, why so little evidence of it? Why no lines in Von Danzig or Ringeck about "Thus we parry to avoid damaging our sword" or some such?


Von Danzig also fails to warn you not to stick your dagger in your eye, but that doesn't exactly argue for the habit.

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Jon Pellett
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Jon Pellett » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:36 am

George:

I'd be happy to pay only 10$ for used swords. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
...and he specifically cites "the rule of the backsword". Curiously enough Joseph Sweatnam cites exactly the same rule in 1617.....and why did two Englishmen seperated by 18 years and who took opposite positions on the rapier both cite the "rule of the back-sword"? Why not just cite "the rule of the sword"?
Nope. Silver never mentions the "rule of the backsword", or even the term backsword at all. You are misremembering, I'm afraid. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

In fact Swetnam says, after describing the Backsword Guard (which, incidentally, is a perfect Outside Guard ala Wylde), "Now although I heere speake altogether of a Backe-Sword, it is not so meant, but the guard is so called: and therefore, whether you are weaponed with a two-edged Sword, or with a Rapier, yet frame your guarde in this manner and forme, as before said."
To me it implies there never was such a rule that applied to anything other than backswords, and that these and other writers had to make explicit an action that people in the period wouldn't naturally assume was the way to parry a blow.
The argument is based on a mistake, but to address it: I think backsword was simply a default term for cutting sword, especially when used single. Swetnam, in his section on sword and dagger, refers to the weapon in use sometimes as just sword, other times as backsword. (And he parries with the edge.) In his table of weapons used by the Masters of Defence he refers to backsword, and sword and dagger, but not backsword and dagger, or just sword. The records of the Masters of Defence corroborate this. Do you have any historical evidence that the backsword was used differently from other swords?

IMHO hard edge parries were a common defence from the late 16th c. at least, even if they were disliked by many masters. If you (I'm talking to people in general here) think that they are an inferior defence, that is fine, but IMHO there is an utter lack of evidence for the smallsword hypothesis.
Yet that's the only case you find made explicit in Silver, where he's defending the leg...

In this case (left side leg parry, 8.25) he refers to the edge as opposed to the back, which was used in the previous (right leg) parry (8.24). It is natural that he would be explicit here, not only for clarity, but because other masters such as DiGrassi make the left side leg parry with the false edge, rather than the true as Silver advises. It's not whether to use the edge, but which edge, that's in question. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

For anyone who's following this, the relevant passages are:

"24. If at sword &amp; dagger or buckler he strike in at the outside of your right leg ward it with the back of your sword, carrying your point down holding your knuckles downward &amp; your nails upward, bearing your sword out strongly toward your right side, upon which ward you may strike him on the outside of the left leg, or thrust him in the thigh or belly.
25. The like may you do if he strike at your other side, if you ward his blow with the edge of your sword your hand &amp; knuckles as aforesaid, casting out his sword blade toward your left side, this may be used at short or long sword fight."

And as a final comment on his move, he says to cast the blade out with both that particular blow and the back-edge version done to the right.
Only with the true-edge version, actually.
If the opposing blade were being completely stopped then casting out would be rather problematic since continuing the arc of Silver's blade's travel would tend to move the opposing blade down his forte to his hilt, not off the end of his blade as "cast out" somewhat implies.
I agree, actually. I think his use of "casting out" (also used for various beating actions elsewhere) definitely implies a strong deflection or beat rather than a hard stopping parry. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

In any case that one parry is just a small part of the argument. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> If I thought Silver was talking about counterstriking or soft deflecting parries, I'd use them. But I'm still waiting for the evidence of that.

Cheers everybody <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby JeffGentry » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:33 am

Hey Jon

carrying your point down holding your knuckles downward &amp; your nails upward


See this type of thing indicate's to me that it is being done with the flat,if you want i'll e-mail you a picture to show what i mean i don't see any edge on edge with this. i have not done extensive research on smallsword, rapier or any such thing just these passage's are usualy cited to support edge on edge and i ca't see it.


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Shane Smith
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Shane Smith » Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:18 am

Keep it scholarly gentlemen.
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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:08 pm

The historical evidence suggests that a *backsword* was basically a straight sabre. It was thus a single-edged sword with a "back" to it, having an unsharpened blunt "edge" and a real sharpened edge, thus your cross-section ending up looking like the wedge of an axe.
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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:32 pm

Hey Guys,

To be blunt, I would say that most groups and individuals who advocate gouging edge-to-edge parrying in swordplay are analagous to tobacco-company executives.

Despite sensible historical and physical evidence to the contrary, the e-t-e advocates insist nonetheless that one should pursue a course of action which is unhealthy for one's sword and hence one's body. This sort of witting maladvice seems comparable to that of tobacco-execs who, despite much scientific evidence to the contrary, nonetheless insist that their foul product is not unhealthy for one's body. If one discounts mere ignorance, then much the same conclusion regarding many e-t-e advocates applies to all tobacco-exes: They wittingly refuse to change what they do because they are psychologically and financially invested of what they advocate. Such men care not for the truth if it interferes with their egos and money.

Like I said, this whole e-t-e nonsense is really tiresome...

<img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

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Jon Pellett
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Jon Pellett » Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:04 pm

Dear Mr. Hull

Indeed this is very tiresome. I am aware of what a backsword is, the question was about its use. Your vile opinions of myself and many others are of no interest to me.

The facts, the historical facts, are that edge-to-edge parries were used. Do you dispute this? The question is when and in what styles they were employed. If you wish to debate me on the subject, I would be very pleased to do so.

I wish you the best of luck in your studies.
Sincerely,
Jon.

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Jon Pellett
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Jon Pellett » Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:19 pm

Jeff G:
See this type of thing indicate's to me that it is being done with the flat,if you want i'll e-mail you a picture to show what i mean i don't see any edge on edge with this.

Yeah, the description sounds like it could mean palm up, which would meet the blow with the flat. But the description fits the back/edge too, if you look at it, and it says explictly to use edge. Also, DiGrassi and Capo Ferro say to use the false edge for the parry.

If you have a way to do this parry your edge against his flat, send me the picture, I'd love to see it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just played with it a bit, and the edge works nicely, but it can be a fairly square edge-to-edge strong-to-weak impact in some cases. But as George mentioned, from many angles it's more of an oblique contact.

Cheers <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

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George Turner
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby George Turner » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:19 pm

Nope. Silver never mentions the "rule of the backsword", or even the term backsword at all. You are misremembering, I'm afraid.


Oops on the rule of the backsword! Things bleed together after a while. Maybe I dreamed it in George Silver's "Thorough Instructions", chapter 6, where he says

And if he attacks you in the manner shown in illustration 217b then step 24" with your right leg moving at 40 to 45 degrees and counter him following the rule of the backsword (for the full definition see appendix 3) using the body joint angles as aforesaid and listen in appendix 12 - table 3, and shown in plates 82 though 90."


Don't we all wish! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, getting back to core assumptions and the difference between infering forward vs. backwards in time, blade costs would be dropping due to improvements in the general economy and increasing wealth. When you look at earlier forms you start seeing people who were spooky about their swords, such as the Norse who didn't want sunlight to hit their pommels. I can imagine an e-mail from Ulfbert asking "Well what'dya do to the blade I sent you last week?"

Remember, the flatvocates here are a bunch of recovering edge-blockers.

We're putting together a seven step program to help others.

"Hi, my name's George and I used to block with the edge. I'd like to apologize to all the blades I've hurt."
<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

The thing is, a rapier really doesn't have an edge. It's kind of a fat little parallelogram with sides and corners. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Hmm.... A third position in the debate. Corner blockers.

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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby JeffGentry » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:05 pm

Hey Jon

" If at sword &amp; dagger or buckler he strikes in at the outside of your right leg ward it with the back of your sword, carrying your point down..."

On the longsword i have a true/long edge and a false/short edge where do we get a definition of the back aside from a weapon that is single edge?

Just remember i am working from only knowledge of the long sword, So when i am trying to understand what is going on, I am delving into these manuel's and quote's as they are posted and so may not answer all thing's immediately or clearly I am trying to get Capo Ferro now to look at his work.

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Matt Bailey
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Matt Bailey » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:32 pm

Jeff Hull: I am aware of the messer technique where one parries with flat/turned around hand. Have I ever denied flat parries are a useful concept? Talhoffer shows much the same thing. Yet Talhoffer shows another messer technique where one cuts directly upward at the opposition's hand when he strikes a zornhau, and how to proceed if he opts to bind on your messer rather than loose his hand. The swords will meet at some permutation of edge to edge.
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Matt Bailey
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Matt Bailey » Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:50 pm

Randall:
90 degree block? Once again you choose to assume I think you should parry just like they do in the movies...if you deflect, your sword is undamaged. If you step in and choke up the blow, even with edges that are fairly thin at the forte, any damage is insignifigant and indeed, often barely visible. I've done it. I know live-steel performers using Del Tin and Windlass pieces in a cringe-worthy manner. The poor swords can literally look like saws after a show. Yet they often use the same sword for years. If such abuse doesn't break a sword, why should a barely visible nick in the forte?

The sad part is that as far as I can tell, the same kind of techniques are advocated in the book Medieval Swordsmanship, striking away the oncoming sword and stepping into stifle with the forte I believe is what Mr. Clements calls them. Some other people call them "edge parries" (They are parries, and the edge is what's used, so why not?), and those people get accused of taking their technique from cruddy re-enactors, sabre manuals, or stage combat, instead of the historical masters.

I, BTW, also have a copy of Paul Wagner's and Stephen Hand's book on I.33. (Really Randall, no need to avoid naming names, how many pictorial interps of I.33 are there right now?) The wierd appearance of Stephen's sword is apparently due to how it's printed, since the swords pictured in the book don't show any visible damage.
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Matt Bailey
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Matt Bailey » Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:07 pm

"Von Danzig also fails to warn you not to stick your dagger in your eye, but that doesn't exactly argue for the habit."

This bit of cleverness proves nothing. The historical German masters, including Von Danzig, tell you to "displace", "set aside", "parry", however you wish to translate it, his sword with one or the other edges quite abit. They tell you to use the flat much less often, and often enough tell you nothing on the matter. They never once mention edge notches, edge preservation, or the like, as far as I know. So while I agree that the full-on-edge slamming of movie cliche is a bad idea, it's primarily because such blocks would allow the opponent to easily kill one and wouldn't reclaim the iniative, edge damage being a very distant third in one's list of concerns. Indeed, occasionally you run into an eventuality, like the rising cut versus zornhau messer sequence I mentioned earlier, that quite possibly could put a big ugly nick in your sword, depending on how it goes down. So be it, if it saves your ass in that situation and gives you an opportunity to kill your opponent.
"Beat the plowshares back into swords. The other was a maiden aunt's dream"-Robert Heinlein.

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George Turner
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby George Turner » Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:59 pm

Ah, got it.

When anyone in the Liechtenauer tradition tells you to strike with the edge they really mean "bash edges together in the fashion of Victorian fencers playing with museum pieces". Now that you mention it I must re-examine John's constant advice to us to strike hard with the edge and never with the flat, especially now that I understand that he's really been telling us to edge parry all this time and we've just been blindly misinterpretting him. We should've done a word count on his articles far sooner so we didn't end up in the weeds.

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Matt Bailey
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Re: Ebbing-Hand Equals Flat-Use

Postby Matt Bailey » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:30 pm

George, sarcasm is the last gambit of the out-argued.

Since myself, everyone else in this discussion, and every serious WMA researcher I know of repudiates the "Hollywood" style of blocking, to whom are you referring to with your comment about Victorians toying with antiquities?

For the very last time, sticking your sword directly into the path of full-force blow is not what I advocate as a general practice. No one who counts does. These continous implications are much more annoying than outright accusations. If you want to say Stoccata or XYZ group is a crowd of idiots who can't figure out effecient technique and who notch their swords into uselessness, then come right out with it.
"Beat the plowshares back into swords. The other was a maiden aunt's dream"-Robert Heinlein.


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