Flat-Use in Fechtbuecher

[Jeffrey Hull]

Flat-Use in Fechtbuecher

The use of the blade-flat in German Medieval and Renaissance longsword fencing is something advocated by various Fechtmeister in their manuals.

By this is meant the meeting during versetzen or brechen of fighter and foe's swords flat-to-flat, flat-to-edge, or edge-to-flat, but not edge-to-edge.

Firstly, witness the German grandmaster Johannes Liechtenauer advising such.

Liechtenauer (via Ringeck-1438)
(similarly repeated by Danzig-1452, Lew-1450 & Speyer-1491)
(Thanks to Arts d'Armes transcription)
(My translation - JH)

Here we are told a way to break through the ward of a foe:

(25v) Haw krump zù den flechen den maistern, wiltu sy schwechen.

(25v) Hew crumpler to the flats of masters, thus you will weaken them.

Both Ringeck and Danzig later explain such as an attack option from barrier-ward -- for example, as Danzig explains:

Liechtenauer (via Danzig-1452)
(Thanks to Arts d'Armes transcription)
(My translation - JH)

(51v) Die stuck treyb vß der schrankhùt also:
...Item, oder haw im krump zur flechen; vnd alß bald es klützt, so
(52r) such die nach mitt der kurtzen schnyden.

(51v) Thus drive the play out of barrier-ward:
...[Thus as aforesaid] or hew him crumpler to the flats; and as soon as it clashes, then
(52r) seek the next [opening] with your short-edge.

Which I have done successfully any number of times versus training partners.

*****

Secondly, witness Hans Talhoffer advising such.

Talhoffer-1459
(My transcription & translation - JH)

(3r) how uff sin fleche
so tüstu in schwechen
wenn eß knilt obnen
So nym ab Daz wil ich lobn

(3r) Hew upon his flat
Thus do you him weaken
When it kneels above
Then take off -- that will I laud

What seems described here is a fighter breaking a foe's strike or ward, doubtlessly at the flat, which brings them to a hard bind, wherefrom fighter takes off and strikes round to an opening of foe.

*****

Lastly, witness Joachim Meyer advising such.

Meyer-1570
(Thanks to Rasmussen-Schielhau transcription)
(My translation - JH)

...fang jhm sein Schwerdt aff deine klingen fleche...

...catch him his sword upon your blade-flat...

And furthermore Meyer advises one to properly do hanging-ward:

...empfach damit seinen streich auf deiner Klingen fleche...

...withstand his strike upon your blade-flat...

Rather straightforward stuff there.

*****

Thus to whomever still disagrees with flat-use as sensible and preferable:

We in ARMA are not gauche, as a certain critic asserted at another forum, for broaching this subject and advocating flat-use in Renaissance swordplay. Rather, we are right.

If flat-use is a problem to you, then really it is neither me nor ARMA with whom you disagree. Indeed, you actually disagree with physics, respect for one's own weaponry, and sadly, the Fight-Masters.

JH

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeff

Yea gotta love the edge on flat, edge on edge "dilema" I am no genius i have alway's had a pet peeve about this subject though i am of the edge on flat crowd.

I have been pretty much out of the other discussion because I have little knowledge about the weapon's or technique's being discussed, i just don't see any point to edged on edge except in an "oh crap!" situation, even the technique's they site when i read it they still look like edge on flat to me.

Like you said it is in the fechtbuch's.

Guess i'm just set in my edge on flat way's, and i do sometime's miss and do an angled edge on edge by accident it does happen on occasion.

Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hello:

I would only add further that John Clements has written extensively regarding this subject. I recommend these excellent articles by him here at the articles & essays part of the ARMA web-site:

*The Myth of Edge-On-Edge Swordplay*
http://www.thearma.org/essays/edgemyth.htm

*Edges of Knowledge: Parrying with a Cutting Sword*
http://www.thearma.org/essays/parry.htm

*How to Teach an Understanding of Parrying* (Parts I-II-III)
http://www.thearma.org/essays/parrying.htm

I especially like Part III of the last article, dealing with the two wards primary to proper parrying.

These contain period references and illustrations, photos of swords used in tests, thorough expert analysis, and helpful advice.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy,

JH

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeff

Yea I have already read those it was part of the reason i liked ARMA no B.S. edge parries, like i said it has alway's been a pet peeve to me.

3 is my favorite too.

Jeff

[John_Clements]

Well, Said Jeff Hull.
And there is of course still much more in the manuals stating the same.

We may want to also acknowledge here that that edge to edge contact does certainly occur and takes place whenever using the strong/forte/ricasso of the blade to intentionally intercept, close-with, or stifle the opponent's weapon. But this is done by moving in forward against the portion of their blade that has the least momentum using the portion of yours that has the strongest leverage. Such an action is of course not at all equivalent to directly blocking a cut with the edge nor to striking at an oncoming edge with another cut. This is so often misunderstood it needs frequent repeating.

Finally, while post-Renaissance fencing 18th &amp; 19th century military cut &amp; thrusts swordplay typically advocated using the edge of the ricasso/forte to statically receive cuts in defense and did away with counter-striking altogether, such teaching does not exist in earlier methods. It derived instead out of light cavalry swordplay, which (odd as it seems) adopted the "double time" parry-riposte methodology of the later smallsword. Even then, such technique was not uniformly practiced for cut and thrust fencing, as we have shown in our research, since several authors of the time warned against this kind of edge to edge blocking practice as being inferior.

JC

[George Turner]

Looking at the Talhoffer plates in another thread, showing a thrust to the chest with the blade edge's vertical (snags on the ribs), brings up another point about the edge/flat.

How do you swing to break an incoming thrust when it may already be poking into you by the time you make blade contact? Or more precisely, if there's a sharp double-edged sword poking against your ribs how do you hit it?

If you hit the blade on the flat it flexes, shortening the distance between pommel and point without shifting the blade's center of gravity forward or back, so the point should pop out under a side load while raking you with the flat.

If you hit it late on its edge you've turned a minor rib poke into a huge pectoral ripping slash.

I guess the key thing about hard strikes to counter thrusts is to avoid turning a deep leg stab (John's had one of those), into a forceful deep cut by hammering the spine of the "knife".

[JeffGentry]

Hey George

Why not just increase the distance the blade need's to travel, or simply put get out of the way before it arrive's.lol

i usualy like to void and displace/parry.


Jeff

[George Turner]

Ah, but it's interesting though, isn't it, because we all sometimes get hit with a thrust that we're trying to counter. So we swing at the thrust to strike it aside without actually always knowing whether it's going to connect or not, and by the time we know whether it will land it's too late to stop our blade's impact. We could back up, but by then we're only some inches away from impacting the thrusting blade with our counter at who knows how many miles per hour.

And hitting squarely on the edge of a blade making a weak thrust that wouldn't normally penetrate might turn a nothingish poke into the start of a very bad day.

Just something to think about.

"You jab 'em in, I rip 'em across!"