ReMA vs. MMA

[M Wallgren]

Has anybody sparred or trained against/with any MMA Fighters?

If so it would be very interessting to hear what your experiences from this you have aquired.

Personaly I think we would handle ourselfs quite well in that kind of "friendly play". What´s your input on this and if an invitation to a MMA event should come, should one participate under the ARMA flag?

Martin

[Mike Cartier]

depends nder what circumstances and with what, if you used Ringen against a modern MMA fighter (BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, wrestling) wouldn't stand a chance.
Go to the ground with a ground fighter and you will know why.

I train in BJJ, muay thai, boxing and bit of wrestling i have been working on a historic reconstruction of Pankration for a few months and me and david knight have been having some Pankration bouts based upon the reconstruction which is startlingly close to modern MMA which is not surprising because Pankration is simply ancient NHB/MMA

The key is that if you don't train in all 3 phases of combat (free movement, clinch and ground) a modern MMA guy will quickly exploit it no matter whether you do a moden art or a historical one.

Do yourself a favor and go check out a Brazilian JiuJitsu school, they will usually give you a free class to check it out and you can see what submission wrestling is like.

[M Wallgren]

Thanks!

I have a few friends training shoto/submission and modern wrestling and all of them are impressed with what we do. In addition in the playfights I´ve indulged in they have been suprised by the hammerstrokes and the "mortstoss" technics from kampfringen. In groundfighting many of our "submission" technics was still useable and many of them have almost identical versions in Sakurabas instructionvideo. I have also tried to study many UFC, Pride and other events to find simmilaritys and in many of thetechnics executed by Genki Sudo is very near in likeness to Ringen (Thai influenced kicks and punches excluded.)

What about fighting in ARMA colour, any thoughts on that?

[Jake_Norwood]

At our current level of understanding of ringen, I agree with Mike.

But!

But our current level of understanding and ability is sorely limited. The techniques and joint locks found in ringen are the same ones as, say, BJJ, just done on the ground. I can't recall where, but I remember reading that "all this can be used on the ground."

Another thing to remember, though, is context. MMA is for use on a mat or relatively flat surface for one-on-one fights. You won't want to hit the ground like that on a battlefield covered with rocks, roots, and broken materiel--nor when somebody's friends might stab you in the back or head when you're executing a rear naked choke. BJJ, in particular (which I love and respect) is at a severe disadvantage when somebody produces a knife halfway through the fight (when it's already on the ground). Context, context, context.

That being said, I think that a ringen fighter has a lot of advantages in a standing fight.

Jake

[Joachim Nilsson]

depends nder what circumstances and with what, if you used Ringen against a modern MMA fighter (BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, wrestling) wouldn't stand a chance.
Go to the ground with a ground fighter and you will know why.

What about the unterhalten techniques?

[Mike Cartier]

always have to be careful not to fall into the BJJ sports trap though , just like with any sport it pays to use common sense.

Interestingly enough some of the BJJ self defense looks alot like the ringen

[Joachim Nilsson]

I was referring to that some of the unterhalten techniques works very well when trying to exort submission on an opponant once the fight have gone to the ground -thus using this as a counterargument against the notion that a kampfringen wrestler would get pounded into the ground by BJJ, Muy Thai and boxing guys. But perhaps I misread your initial post. IMHO, someone truly skilled in ringen could (with all probability) hold his ground quite well in a MMA event. But then again, it's not so much the techniques used that counts, but the body using them. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regards,

[Mike Chidester]

We've discussed it a time or two here in Provo, and the common conclusion is that the best way to fight MMA fighters is to keep your feet. Such schools tend to neglect the clinch completely, so our techniques for grappling at that range would be highly effective. Focus on putting them in a submission hold before the fight goes to the ground, and you should be find.

[david welch]

We study a combat art.

Focus on killing them before the fight goes to the ground, and you should be fine.

There. That's better. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[M Wallgren]

Yeah!

But!!!

In Codex Wallerstein there is a reference to the "Friendly play" one exercise to train and the real stuff. I realy don´t think you killed intensionally in training even in the 15:th century. A trained fighter was probaly a little to big investment for the local leader to waist in training...

Though accidents real or faked has always been around...

Again, any thoughts on the get in the ring with cornermen in red shirts??

[Jon Pellett]

Jake:

I can't recall where, but I remember reading that "all this can be used on the ground."

There's a bit in Ringeck's mordstosse section which goes "Die selben bruch vnd widerbruch thu in allen ringen: zu rosß, zu füssen, gewäpnet oder bloß, zu lauffens, ligend oder vffstendig."

Cheers

[Mike Chidester]

Focus on killing them before the fight goes to the ground, and you should be fine.

Yes, but killing your opponents in friendly sparring bouts tends to give one a bad reputation--your pool of sparring partners will dry up pretty fast. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

However, arm breaks done at slow speeds are perfectly legit--those are the best submission holds.

[Joachim Nilsson]

We've discussed it a time or two here in Provo, and the common conclusion is that the best way to fight MMA fighters is to keep your feet. Such schools tend to neglect the clinch completely, so our techniques for grappling at that range would be highly effective. Focus on putting them in a submission hold before the fight goes to the ground, and you should be find.

Yes, I agree.

There is also plenty of defences against attempts at grabbing the legs. Codex Wallerstein is full of them. If the fight happens to go to the ground one can always look to Ringeck for sound advice on how to subdue the opponant. I have used these techniques in real life assaults so I know they work.

[Mike Cartier]

Focus on killing them before the fight goes to the ground, and you should be fine.

Noone ever thinks they will be taken to the ground. Fighting goes through 3 phases, most people are only familiar with the free movement phase making the clinch and ground phases virtually unkown to people. EVERYONE thinks they will knock out the person before they get taken down. The opportunities to strike in the clinch or on the ground are severly limited and in fact quite different from normal striking so most strikers an be effectively nullified with a good clinch or takedown.

We've discussed it a time or two here in Provo, and the common conclusion is that the best way to fight MMA fighters is to keep your feet. Such schools tend to neglect the clinch completely, so our techniques for grappling at that range would be highly effective.

I'm not sure you clearly understand MMA skills, precisly what makes MMA fighters the most dangerous martial artists is thier command of all phases of combat. I think you are mixing up BJJ with MMA. BJJ is simply a part of MMA, albeit a large part. MMA fighters usually have a mix of BJJ, Wrestling, boxing and muay thai giving them good solid skills in all 3 phases. The only way to stay on your feet with a grappler is to have grappling skills, even the committed strikers of today's MMA who never use submissions use ground fighting to get back to thier feet for the strike or use grappling to stuff the takedown attempts.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Well, I do have training as well as real life fighting experience, and with all the ringen Martin and I have trained in mind, I think Martin may be on to something when it comes to a kampfringen fighter competing against an MMA guy in an open tournament.. But I guess the only true solution to this little argument and discussion of ours is to try it out in IRL. Ringen vs MMA of any kind.

And like I said: the medieval manuals aren't totally devoid of ground fighting techniques. The ones I successfully employed in a real life situation against a 7ft tall Norwegian bar brawler were taken directly from Ringeck.