ReMA vs. MMA

[M Wallgren]

HE He ...

That´s a good argument!

[Joachim Nilsson]

I'm not sure you clearly understand MMA skills, precisly what makes MMA fighters the most dangerous martial artists is thier command of all phases of combat. I think you are mixing up BJJ with MMA. BJJ is simply a part of MMA, albeit a large part. MMA fighters usually have a mix of BJJ, Wrestling, boxing and muay thai giving them good solid skills in all 3 phases. The only way to stay on your feet with a grappler is to have grappling skills, even the committed strikers of today's MMA who never use submissions use ground fighting to get back to thier feet for the strike or use grappling to stuff the takedown attempts.

Well... With all due respect, I don't think you clearly understand Ringen skills. Or are you seriously trying to claim that Ringen, a form of fighting evolved for use in deadly fights, does not command all phases of combat? I'm also hard pressed to see any major difference between MMA and the more friendly aspects of Ringen. In MMA you have locks, takedowns, kicks, punches etc. In Ringen you have locks, takedowns, kicks, punches etc. With this in mind I tried to state earlier that it really doesn't matter if you use MMA or Ringen in an open competition. What matters is how good you are at what you do.

[Mike Cartier]

Or are you seriously trying to claim that Ringen, a form of fighting evolved for use in deadly fights, does not command all phases of combat?

Thats exactly what i am claiming, furthermore there is no martial art I have ever seen that included proper attention to all phases of combat as conceptualized in today's MMA competitions. Thats why MMA exists because no one art covers all phases, people always feel extremely secure in thier phase of choice so much so that they ignore the other phases.

if you step into the ring in a MMA competition you will be dealing with a high level grappler more likely than not, that means right there probably 75 - 90% of standing submissions will be impossible to pull off simply because of the level of the grapplers skills. BJJ self defense is alot like Ringen and you never ever see any BJJ self defense in MMA competition simply because pulling a mans arm out straight over your shoulder as you turn so that you can break it (shown in Ringen and BJJ self defense) is virtually impossible to pull off against a person with serious grappling skills.

When i say serious grappling skills i mean serious, hundreds and hundreds of hours spent wrestling and rolling BJJ. Fighters with skillsets like that in grappling are almost impossible even for other high level grapplers to apply submissions on.

What matters is how good you are at what you do

Yes and MMA fighters spends thousands of hours grappling with other high level grapplers, are you trying to say that our casual reconstructions of Ringen are on a par with Olympic wrestlers, Judoka and MMA fighters who train fulltime with some of the best strikers, grapplers and fighters in the world?

watch this video and decide for yourself, its a preview of the upcoming Pride middleweight GP
pride preview

[M Wallgren]

I Train almost a 20-30 hours a week. I have spent a lot of time training in my life. How do you train Ringen? Standing watching the book?? It takes about 20 minutes to have a technic interpreted if you have done reserch before you get in to training... the rest is just repetition.

I do take my MA as serious as any other MArtist.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Thats exactly what i am claiming, furthermore there is no martial art I have ever seen that included proper attention to all phases of combat as conceptualized in today's MMA competitions. Thats why MMA exists because no one art covers all phases, people always feel extremely secure in thier phase of choice so much so that they ignore the other phases.

Eeokay. That more or less made any further discussion redundant... Saying that something devised to kill people with does not command all phases of combat is... Well, to me that implies a lack of study of the medieval/renaissance systems.

BJJ self defense is alot like Ringen and you never ever see any BJJ self defense in MMA competition simply because pulling a mans arm out straight over your shoulder as you turn so that you can break it (shown in Ringen and BJJ self defense) is virtually impossible to pull off against a person with serious grappling skills.

Pulling someones arm over one's shoulder so one could break it isn't the only defense in Ringen...

Yes and MMA fighters spends thousands of hours grappling with other high level grapplers, are you trying to say that our casual reconstructions of Ringen are on a par with Olympic wrestlers, Judoka and MMA fighters who train fulltime with some of the best strikers, grapplers and fighters in the world?

Well, that was what Martin initially hinted at in his post. The "what if scenario". You seem to have missed that point entirely.

And I wouldn't call what Martin and I have been doing casual... But that's just me.

I wrote:

But I guess the only true solution to this little argument and discussion of ours is to try it out in IRL. Ringen vs MMA of any kind.

This discussion has gone far enough. Any takers? No?

[JeffGentry]

Hey M

(Was M the gadget guy in Bond?) Any way me personaly I would like to see this tested in an MMA/NHB type enviroment, I would just suggest that if you go in as a Ren Martial art's Practioner you train just as hard as any other fighter.

By that I mean conditioning and strike's as well as the ringen I have no evidence to support my view, I qaurentee that striking was a part of ringen as well as the clinch, or armlock's, takedown's or anything else.

If you know some MMA/NHB fighter's and have the technique's down like they do I would say train with them for awhile and go for it I would like to hear the result's.

If you go in under the context of RMA I know me personaly I wouldn't have a problem with any ARMA member wearing our shirt's in the ring or having there corner guy's do the same in my mind it is somewhat like a satndard duel without weapon's and if this is your standard bear it proudly.

I think it would be a good test of the ringen technique's against a realy uncooperative opponent.


Jeff

[M Wallgren]

Thanks Jeff.

I was hoping someone would find my question here <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like good advice. There though a long way for me to get fit to do something like that , and I can think of others in my former studygroup of ARMA Gimo better siuted to proudly defend ARMAs colours in the fighting-ring.

Thanks again... Best regards M as in Martin... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Robert Subiaga]

With all due respect, I have to come to Cartier's defense; it is inflated to think that ringen is somehow superior because it' supposed to involve "killing" for a number of reasons--but chief among them is that it is MUCH harder to kill with unarmed techniques than the vast majority of people realize.

Given the nature of combat--with killing as the aim--ringen was geared toward the ability to kill WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY COULD BE OBTAINED. That is a far cry from actually obtaining the opportunity! This is especially true against an extremely skilled adversary who has control at all ranges.

To use a simple example: I have trained extensively in choking--a potentially highly lethal manuever; the typical wrestler has not. Yet against an Olympic caliber wrestler--and especially one who might be aware of the danger of being choked--is my skill level anywhere near sufficient to make it likely I'll put him into the choke? Not usually. (Especially not with my current level of conditioning and some of the effects of age and injury.)

Many times in all my years of judo and BJJ-style work this simple truth was shown when cross-training with wrestlers. IF we worked just as hard on the basic "non-finishing" moves of wrestling--controlling transitions, clinches, making/avoiding simple takedowns, body position--we stood a great chance of getting them in the end. If any of us was the least untrained--or rusty--in those areas, the "incomplete" art of the wrestlers always won out.

Or, put another way, it would be easy to disparage the avidpaintball player and elevate the knife fighter, based on the "we're really practicing to kill" argument. But put a gun in the paintball player's hands? In fact, put a gun in both their hands when the knife fighter has not practiced with anything like a firearm? Who would you bet on?

This all is also a caveat--albeit a muych more muted one--in armed art as well. That is, don't assume that because someone has killed that they are a superior martial artists. Under many--perhaps most--conditions, killing with arms is quite easy. There are people who have done it, and done it often, who are mediocre or even poor at the real skill. Meanwhile, there are many, many people who have not yet taken a life who are eminently capable of it.

[M Wallgren]

Hi Robert.

Again It seems we don´t realy talk about the same thing. No one has stated that Kampfringen is a better than for example BJJ or any MMA. What we try to say is that our reserch AND TRAINING tells us that Kampfringen is a Mixed Martial Art. It has grappling, punches, downtakes and some kicks and defences against them all. And the Thing is that Joachim says that it´s down to how good you are at this things that will make a difference. I Have trained with some experienced Shoto fighters who think the ringen is a good way to get an edge in a fight. Codex Wallerstein and many other manual states again and again that this technic is a good trick, e.i. something you can use when you get the oppertunity. CW also states in the beginning of the Ringen section that you should train by make friendly combat, read sparring, to achive the basic skills needed. What I was thinking was to train and mabie get into a fight on some of the local events here in Sweden to match myself against other MMA guys using this tricks if I get the chance. Of course the arrangers of such event would test my skills before they let me in, and would not let me in if I was not trained enough physicaly and technically. The basics of hand to hand unarmed combat is the same wherever you go, and if not trained you won´t stand a chance.

English is not my tounge, may it be I think in Swedish to much and I can´t make myself understood in english. Please tell me if you think I´m unclear in any way. And I will try to express myself in another way!!!

take care...

Martin

[Joachim Nilsson]

I'm trying insanely hard to not lose my patience here. It seems that I've lost the ability my clearly express my opinions in the English language since once again someone has completely misunderstood my point. I'm going to make it as clear as possible for the last time: When Martin posted his initial question it was under the assumption that the guy trained in Ringen would have the same amount of training hours under his belt as the MMA guy he would be facing.

In retrospect perhaps both Martin and I should have stated this out loud in big, bold letters since almost no-one has understood that yet. To, under those circumstances, still push and hype the superiority of MMA over Ringen -that would be inflated. Especially if one happens to lack training, and thus proper insights, in Ringen.

I've stated twice already that:

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But I guess the only true solution to this little argument and discussion of ours is to try it out in IRL. Ringen vs MMA of any kind.



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This discussion has gone far enough. Any takers? No?

Funny how both you and Mike have completely ignored this open invitation. I cannot state it clearly enough: I'm sick and tired of this utterly pointless discussion. There is such a thing as too much talk. Enough is enough.

Funny how people who seek to explore martial arts at the same time seem to piss on their own martial heritage.

It's also equally funny to people jump to conclusions as to what our intentions are and somehow automatically come to the conclusion that we're proposing that Ringen would be superior to this or that. That is not what we're saying. What we are saying is that with equally trained fighters from both disciplines both would stand a valid chance. Just because we say one thing it does not automatically imply something else. Not all things are black and white in the discussions we partake in. I don't know about you... And nowhere have I mentioned that it is easy to kill another human being, so quit grabbing things out of thin air and putting words into my mouth thank you very much.

Equally funny, although I'm not laughing here (not even cracking a smile), is the fact that people who have little or no training in Ringen dismiss the Ringen techniques as a viable option in an MMA event.

And, "with all due respect", you have trained judo and BJJ-work. Okay. That's fine. How much Ringen have you trained???

And speaking of killing people and life threatening situations: have you been in one? Have you been attacked with improvised weapons. Have someone tried to hit you in the head with two bar stools? Have someone tried to bash your head in with an iron pipe or tried to slash your throat with a boxcutter? Have someone hospitalized you by kicking you thrice in the face thus causing internal skull fractures? If not: Back down.

I'm sick and tired of being locked down upon just because I come from a tiny country on the other side of the Atlantic and the notion that that somehow would mean that I don't know what the #### I'm talking about.

[Robert Subiaga]

The assumption that the ringen practitioner has the same amount of training under his belt as the MMA practicioner does change matters. But not completely.

We're still speculating, on a situation that has not been put to the test. In that case, assuming the superiority of the MMA fighter may indeed be premature--but it is no less so to declare the superiority of the ringen fighter. Dicta docta pro datis. When tested, we can see.

My most important caveat still stands. DO NOT ASSUME THAT BECAUSE A MARTIAL ARTIST OSTENSIBLY TRAINS "TO KILL" --or even has killed!--THAT HIS SKILL SET IS SUPERIOR.

If that were the case, I would not have bothered to join ARMA! Not unless John or some of you others have a higher body count than I thought. That is, there were tens of thousands of Rwandans hacked apart with machetes--pretty close to swords--and more than a few of those doing the hacking had a high body count to their fame. If I thought otensibly training "to kill" necessarily transferred to an actual ability to kill, swould I not go learn from them?

Neither would I have done my handgun training from the instructors I've had--none of which has taken a life. I'd go to some of the "gangbanger" teenagers I've had to wrangle who have killed--and yet who can't even hold a handgun properly.

I'm open to the possibility that ringen, at comparable levels of training, might distinguish itself. Until that haappens, however, please don't use speculation to tell me that WILL happen.

[Joachim Nilsson]

My most important caveat still stands. DO NOT ASSUME THAT BECAUSE A MARTIAL ARTIST OSTENSIBLY TRAINS "TO KILL" --or even has killed!--THAT HIS SKILL SET IS SUPERIOR.

Okay... Patience totally lost... What did I say? Didn't I just say that I was to explain things for the last time?

Have I been writing in some other language than English???? Answer that. Because no-where in my posts have I implied anything even remotely close to what you are insinuating.

It seems to me that this whole discussion has dragged on in absurdum just because a couple of MMA praticioners somehow felt Martin stepped on their toes by simply asking about their views on the subject someone trained in Ringen taking part in an open MMA event. He did not want to spur an seemingly endless, and entirely futile, debate on which discipline is more "superior" than the other. That's something you must have read into it all on your own.

Nice job avoiding my direct questions btw. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Robert Subiaga]

As this discussion becomes heated, I should add one thing.

Understand that what I'm about to say, in and of itself, doesn't prove anything; the pluraal of anecdote, as I've been told many times, is not "data." Also understand that I guess some of you at ARMA might have similar experience--those of you with military service, for example--but have taken on a different perspective on it. We will have to "agree to disagree."

Still, it needs to be said.

I know what it is like to take a human life.

Deliberately. And not from a distance, but with my own hands. It was in a manner basically sanctioned by society, so don't worry--I'm neither on the lam from the authorities, nor an ex-con. Still, I have taken human life.

It is ridiculously easy, sometimes. Sometimes often. Please do not try to tell me that either taking life, or ostensibly training to do it, means much at all.

If you put a sword in John Clements's hands and one in mine, I'd virtually certainly be a dead man. In fact, I can name hundreds of men who have never killed, but would almost certainly kill me, hand-to-hand.

Beware the body count. It means next to NOTHING.

[Robert Subiaga]

Oh, and BTW, does that mean I have succeeded in answering your question?

[Shane Smith]

Keep it scholarly gentlemen. Personal insults or flaming/baiting will not be tolerated in any way. This thread is getting too heated. Everyone step back, take a breath and re-engage. All posters please read these rules http://www.thearma.org/forum/ and abide by them. They will be strictly enforced.