ReMA vs. MMA

[Joachim Nilsson]

Duly noted. I'm going to step away from the computer. The powers that be knows it's surely needed. Anyone thinking they have some kind of personal beef with me, or my views, are welcome to take it up with me in personal discussion.

[Robert Subiaga]

Post deleted by Shane Smith

[Joachim Nilsson]

I'm gonna honor Shane's wishes and not even touch that one with a ten foot pole. Robert, check you PM's. There is no more room for this discussion on the open forum.

[Robert Subiaga]

Apparently some of the misunderstanding comes from a lag time between posts from far sides of the world--I write a post, I send it, it posts AFTER your reply to the last post, you think I'm not responding to your questions, etc etc etc.

So here, without hyperbole:

You responded to Cartier with vociferous speculation that an adept ringen practitioner with comparable training time would do well in MMA.

My counterpoint was that I'll believe it when I see it, and until then I'll be extremely skeptical--and bet on the side of the MMA with the as-yet proven track record.

You replied to that notion by countering that ringen has a past proven track record, and did indeed tout one of the high points of ringen was that it was designed to kill, and ostensibly trains to kill.

My counterpoint is that, in hand-to-hand combat, intent to kill in training does not necessarily translate into ability.

You attempted to goad me by questioning my experience--and I must say, in rather insulting and challenging language.

I honestly divulged that experience, which I think clearly indicates I have at least some knowledge in the area, that doesn't take a back seat to yours.

You argued for the worth of a skill by listing injuries the skill hopefully would have prevented.

I pointed out that that is poor rhetoric; and that--if you indeed would want to promote ringen, which I think has great value and potential--you should not argue in that manner.

Your rhetoric also appealed to high emotion, and rung of recklessness.

I replied that recklessness and emotional outbursts have no more a place in intellectual combat than physical.

Finally, I undercut myself by hurling out a caveat that questioned, not my experience, but the value of considering it makes my opinion final, or even necessarily valid.

To do that, however--to urge skepticism about the presence or lack of my own experience--I have to reiterate that experience.

Your response to that is to accuse ME of obsession with "body count," and ignore that the POINT of my bringing it up in the first place ...

... which was to question your assertion that did indeed tout one of the high points of ringen is that it was designed to kill, and ostensible trains to kill ...

And 'round and 'round we go?

I agree, this thread should stop.

[Robert Subiaga]

Shane, my apologies.

[Robert Subiaga]

And please understand that the LAG TIME is the only reason there was a last post. I hadn't even seen your attempt to tone it down until AFTER I hit "send."

Please, if you feel it necessary or helpful, delete it.

[Joachim Nilsson]

What happened to my PM?

Your response to that is to accuse ME of obsession with "body count," and ignore that the POINT of my bringing it up in the first place ...

... which was to question your assertion that did indeed tout one of the high points of ringen is that it was designed to kill, and ostensible trains to kill ...

See, that is where you misunderstood me. The reason I brought up that true kampfringen are designed with the demize of the enemy in mind was to counter Mike's argument that Ringen does not grant experience in all three phases of combat. That, and that alone, was the sole reason for me bringing that up. The "kill part" was to illustrate that a discipline exploring those vistas needs, and usually does encompass the aspects of all three phases of combat. Else it would not be a viable set of techniques to rely on in battle. That was my reason for bringing it up in the first place, and not so that I could obsess over body counts.

And me bringing up situations where I have been injured as well as walked away without a scratch from, was not to try to illustrate the value of kampfringen. Those examples were brought up simply give weight to the fact that I'm not some internet keyboard warrior who's never even seen, much less experienced, a real fight or other dangerous experiences. And, seeing as to how you do not list any training experience whatsoever on your profile, you can hardly blame a guy for being suspicious about where you are coming from. Especially since you seemed so adamant about putting your point in the discussion across. That made want to reassure myself that you weren't one of those previously mentioned "internet keyboard warriors". That's all I intended. Nothing more, nothing less. I think it's a most valid point to question people's experiences. Especially if one doesn't know them from earlier online or real life discussions. People are more than welcome to question my experience.

And none of my "recklessness" in this debate would have surfaced if you hadn't kept pushing me. And the only reason for me bringing that up now is to illustrate to other potential readers that I'm usually not guided by my emotions when I discuss. But even my patience has its limits. -So once again to the moderators: This was not an attempt to further goad and bait Robert. I have already sent a private message to him since that's the only place this discussion belongs from now on. The rest of the issue is, as previously implied, dead.

I hope I have made myself clear enough this time.

That being said: I am sorry that you have had to suffer such an experience as the taking of another life and if my post in some way made you ill at ease and forced you to mentally relive the experience -I apologize.

[Joachim Nilsson]

There. Above post edited to include further clarification.

[JeanryChandler]

I think maybe I can shed some light here possibly. I hope so anyway.

I know and respect members of both sides of this argument and I think I can see where a basic misunderstanding has taken place.


On Mike Cartiers side, I think what he is referring to is the evolution which all those who watched it from it's infancy saw take place in MMA. Remember (and please forgive me if this is already familiar territory I'm covering here), MMA isn't so much a form of martial art as a mixture of several martial arts. MMA arose as the result of people from BJJ, Karate, Kung Fu, Russian Sambo, Greco -Roman wrestling, Boxing, and countless other more exotic arts (including even Sumo) come into a mixed martial arts arena with a minimum (though constantly evolving) set of rules to 'put up or shut up' and have it out.

What emerged was that none of the individual martial arts schools had ALL of the ingredients necessary to win in this type of arena. Grapplers won most often but were not infrequently battered into defeat by strikers. What ended up happening was this melding of all the arts, with strict attention to the three phases Mike refers to. Thats why it now has so much respect with some very hard core fighters.

MMA in short exposed the limitations inherent in literally every martial art now practiced in the world. So it's hard in one sense to assume that Ringen would pass this test unmodified, when no other martial art has done so.

On the other side of the argument, I think Joachim and Martin are pointing out that Ringen, at least in theory, would not arguably suffer from the same limitations that other martial arts have shown, precisely because it came from a time when such arts were actually in use, being put to the test if you will, all the time for real, to the death.

(this 'to the death' part was somewhat misunderstood...)

I think there is some merit to this idea, since we do know that a lot of the EMA styles changed considerably into sports or even forms of exercise as their actual use for killing declined. It is at least theoretically possible that Ringen would be like some 16th century ressurected version of an EMA like Kung Fu in it's origiinal much more lethal form.

In other words, its not so much just that Ringen is to the death in the paintball vs knife fight analogy, it's that it was put to the ultimate test all the time, for real probably more often than for 'fun'. So for this reason it was still an alive and active martial art and not a preserved remnant as many others had become before being revived again by MMA. So it is actually plausable to assume that Ringen might indeed be much more well rounded than the other 'pure' martial arts which were originally put to the test in the MMA arena.


Mikes other point is that none of us have yet trained in WMA of any kind to the level that MMA people are doing. In that he is probably right (with due respect to the formidable training efforts of our Swedish friends) if only because so many of the
MMA people are doing this as a profession, i.e. literally full time.

However, Martins original idea of entering into MMA training and ultimately competitions using (and representing) Ringen technique? I actually think this is a terrific idea and our Viking friends are probably just the guys to do it, they seem to take their training very seriously and are obviously experienced street fighters as well which is important for something like this IMHO. I think it would be a very good way to ramp up the intensity of training and learning of Ringen.

My only question, is there enough there in the manuals that you can fully reconstruct it to equal the richness and nuance of the current MMA level? My fear would be that EMA or other MMA techniques might get blended in, creating what would really be a hybrid form.

Forgive my ignorance but I have studied almost no Ringen and only focused on Longsword, and my fechtbuch knowlege is weak.

Anyway, I just want to say, I think we have some very serious and devoted people on all sides of this argument. I know Mike Cartier personally and he is an ace individual. I have also corresponded quite a bit with Joachim and Martin and I consider them very honorable people.

The thing is, you guys are some of the most passionately devoted WMA unarmed advocates in the world, and I think you all share a profound interest in ressurecting WMA techniques for unarmed fighting. You should definately be working together! Joachim and Martin you should check out Mikes page on Pankraeton (sp!) it's really fascinating.

Jeanry

[Ben Christy]

missed that adress sorry!

[JeanryChandler]

One other thing I would like to say, and perhaps lighten the mood a bit...

I dont think most Americans look 'down' on Swedish WMA practitioners because Sweden is a 'tiny' country. For one thing, Sweden looks pretty big on a mercatur projection, most Americans probably think it's at least comparable to the entire East coast of the USA.

Those few who do know the population have to be amazed at the fact that Sweden produces world class cars and supersonic fighter airplanes, that dozens of our Swedish colleagues speak to us in nearly perfect English while very very few Americans speak Swedish (or any other language except a sometimes questonable English). Swedes are known for having some of the most beatiful women in the world ("Swedish Bikini team" is stuck in pop culture memories from Married With Children)... And most of all, in places like this, I think we American mutts envy your ancestral heritage as Vikings. Who doesn't want to be a Viking?

I think 99% of this whole argument boils down to that "internet / email / forums / nuance issue" which causes so much confusion regardless of who is speaking what language or native tongue.

Jeanry

from a very small insignificant third world country called Louisiana.

[Joachim Nilsson]

You're absolutely right Jeanry. Thanks for stepping in and clarifying things (for both sides). And yes, we should put aside our differences and instead work towards a common goal. In retrospect (I've been doing a lot of that today): Seeing as to how it backfired maybe it was somewhat unwise of Martin to post the hypothetical question: "What if?". But, ultimately, any blame for that falls in my lap and my lap alone since I'm the one that planted the thoughts of going up against MMA guys with Ringen as ones only backup in his head in the first place. And no-one could foresee that it would backfire the way it did. Granted, that is to be expected when groups of testosterone-filled and proud men who all dabble in combative arts come together. Arguments arise and tempers flare.

On the other side of the argument, I think Joachim and Martin are pointing out that Ringen, at least in theory, would not arguably suffer from the same limitations that other martial arts have shown, precisely because it came from a time when such arts were actually in use, being put to the test if you will, all the time for real, to the death.

Yes, that indeed part of the point we were trying to get across. Another thing is that the more we observe techniques from both camps -the more similarities we see pop up. I will elaborate more on this when I answer one of your other questions Jeanry.

Mikes other point is that none of us have yet trained in WMA of any kind to the level that MMA people are doing. In that he is probably right (with due respect to the formidable training efforts of our Swedish friends) if only because so many of the
MMA people are doing this as a profession, i.e. literally full time.

Granted, that is a point that it would be outright foolish of me not to give Mike credit for. He's certainly got a point there. However, seeing as to how we (at least from the outset) were speaking in hypothetical terms we envisioned the fighter trained in Ringen was also doing it as a profession. We failed to makes this clear, but I hope people will take that into consideration now. I think I have touched upon this briefly once already. I for one would jump at the opportunity to pursue these arts on a full time basis.

However, Martins original idea of entering into MMA training and ultimately competitions using (and representing) Ringen technique? I actually think this is a terrific idea and our Viking friends are probably just the guys to do it, they seem to take their training very seriously and are obviously experienced street fighters as well which is important for something like this IMHO. I think it would be a very good way to ramp up the intensity of training and learning of Ringen.

Thank you Jeanry. I am deeply honored. We actaully have special training sessions which are entirely devoted to Ringen and Dagger practice. These sessions include offensive and defensive warm up drills, fall-and-roll training, thorough repetions of trained techniques (starting at moderate pace and working up to full speed attcks and counters), teachings of a couple of new techniques and sparring and free-play. The sparring sessions are comprised of unarmed vs dagger, dagger vs dagger and unarmed vs unarmed.

My only question, is there enough there in the manuals that you can fully reconstruct it to equal the richness and nuance of the current MMA level? My fear would be that EMA or other MMA techniques might get blended in, creating what would really be a hybrid form.

Well, I think that if you compile as much material as possible from different manuals and Masters you would get a pretty good coverage. I'm cannot for certain say that you would get a 100% coverage and be able to supply corresponding Ringen techniques to each and every one of the techniques used in MMA. But one works with what one has got. And fighters, from all disciplines and walks of life, have their own sets of techniques that they use. No-one has much use for every single technique that some of the fighting arts utilizes. Partly because one probably wouldn't get the opportunity to use all of them during a match anyway.

I think the ticket is to make sure that you have a couple of blows, a couple of kicks, some good throws and takedowns and a firm knowledge of the Unterhalten techniques and different joint locks etc. Most of the bone breaking techniques can be utilized as locks. Unterhalten is more or less (some scholars are opposed to this notion) the medieval equalient of modern day ground fighting. Granted, the early manuals don't have as many ground fighting techniques as maybe MMA guys have, but they are there.

Consequently, all these can be found in the manuals. Look to Ringeck for Unterhalten and check Codex Wallerstein (complimented by Dürer's excellent renditions of the same techniques) for the rest of the techniques. Codex Wallerstein is our current number one source of techniques. It contains well over a hundred plates of kampfringen and among those you find for instance:

*Kicks

*Blows (actually parries, blocks and locks against blows, but they are dead giveaways for which kinds of blows that are utilized. IOHO: hammerblows and straight blows a la jack Dempsey and well as open hand blows.)

*Throws

*Takedowns

*Submission-styled locks that are to be used once the opponant has hit the ground.

*Defenses against grappling attempts made at the legs as well as the upper body and counters against those defenses.

*A wide assortment of bonebreaks and various nasty (neat) little tricks [which in all propability would be banned from a MMA event, but I think they deserve mention anyway <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ].

I totally sympathize with your fear that there might evolve some kind of hybrid version and since I share that fear with you, I always keep a watchful eye on the techniques and fottwork and movement patterns that are being employed in my classes. We try our best to get them to match as closely as possible what we percieve in the manuals. So far I'd like to think we haven't strayed onto thin ice. We have avery skilled Campoera fighter in our study group and so far he has refrained from going into weird spinning motions and cartwheels. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He quickly adapted to using a proper body stance and proper, secure footwork.

Anyway, I just want to say, I think we have some very serious and devoted people on all sides of this argument. I know Mike Cartier personally and he is an ace individual. I have also corresponded quite a bit with Joachim and Martin and I consider them very honorable people.

The thing is, you guys are some of the most passionately devoted WMA unarmed advocates in the world, and I think you all share a profound interest in ressurecting WMA techniques for unarmed fighting. You should definately be working together! Joachim and Martin you should check out Mikes page on Pankraeton (sp!) it's really fascinating.

Yes. As I stated above: I agree. Part of the reason I started pushing so hard for the good old "step up and throw down and put your money where your mouth is" was because I feel that things can only be discussed to a certain extent and sooner or later you have to show what you're made of. We Swede's also have a tendency to want to quit the "chitter-chatter" and get down to business as quick as possible. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

And I felt that the points pressed by both sides had been taken as far as they could go and that any further discussion would only become speculative and nonsensical. It would not make either one of us gain any ground whatsoever if you will. I would still love to engage in friendly sparring with people trained in other disciplines though and hope that this can be done sometime. Else I wouldn't have planted those seeds in Martin's brain in the first place. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Being very passionate about Ringen and its inherent usefullness I can fully understand Mike's and Robert's passionate pushes for the "MMA way". I just wish we had reached a common ground sooner and started to see eye to eye on the matters discussed before things went as far south as they did.

Best regards,

[Joachim Nilsson]

One other thing I would like to say, and perhaps lighten the mood a bit...

I dont think most Americans look 'down' on Swedish WMA practitioners because Sweden is a 'tiny' country. For one thing, Sweden looks pretty big on a mercatur projection, most Americans probably think it's at least comparable to the entire East coast of the USA.

Those few who do know the population have to be amazed at the fact that Sweden produces world class cars and supersonic fighter airplanes, that dozens of our Swedish colleagues speak to us in nearly perfect English while very very few Americans speak Swedish (or any other language except a sometimes questonable English). Swedes are known for having some of the most beatiful women in the world ("Swedish Bikini team" is stuck in pop culture memories from Married With Children)... And most of all, in places like this, I think we American mutts envy your ancestral heritage as Vikings. Who doesn't want to be a Viking?

Point taken. Mood lightened. I wish I someday could get the opportunty to explain in person why such notions arise. Seeing the above text I take your word for it though. No harm, no foul. And no hard feelings. At least on my part.

I think 99% of this whole argument boils down to that "internet / email / forums / nuance issue" which causes so much confusion regardless of who is speaking what language or native tongue.

Yes. Absolutely. Things would surely have been quite different from the get go had we all had been sitting in the same room/hanging out in the same gym/standing in the same rock quarry (yep, that's where we train a lot of the time <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Works wonders for your footwork!).

At least the air have been thoroughly cleared now. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[M Wallgren]

Thank you Jeanry!

But 25-40% of the population in Sweden was Slavic slaves (hense the namne) during the viking era. And I have had 1000 year to degenerate from that. hehe.

[JeanryChandler]

Ha! I'm writing a book about the Vikings right now. Sweden had more slaves than Denmark or Norway in the Viking era, and they really dont know for sure how many there were 'in-country', but 25-40% is a very high estimate. Probably closer to 10% were actually kept in - country in Sweden (far less in Denmark and less still in Norway), as most were sold to profitable Arab and Byzantine slave markets overseas.

Also, not all the slaves were Slavic, many would be Irish, Frankish, Frisian, Saxon, and a few even Swedish, Danish or Norwegian (as a small number of Norse people were made thralls though debts, criminal sanction, and even due to extreme poverty)

Any time you want to talk about Vikings, email me!

JR