introduction, questions from an amatuer

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JeanryChandler
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introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:09 am

My name is Jean Henri Chandler. I'm 37 years old and a resident of New Orleans, Louisiana. I would like to introduce myself to the members of this list, for those who might be interested.

My background is non academic. I am an enthusiastic amateur historian and have always had a great deal of interest in military history and weapons and armor in particular. I have a few semesters of University training but I never achieved a degree of any kind (not even a high school diploma). I have read quite a bit, for a layman, about medieval warfare, and I do have a considerable degree of experience in both real street fighting and play-sparring, about which I will explain a bit more. I am also familiar with many military strategy and simulation games, particularly the old cardboard chit, table top variety such as used to be published by the [censored] of Avalon Hill and SPI. I did a tour in the Army in the late 1980's. Air Assault School in Kentucky, Combat Medic school in San Antonio, and a three year tour in Germany in an Artillery unit. I have had almost every menial blue collar job imaginable in my life, but since the mid 90's I have been employed as a Database programmer. These days I work for a small insurance firm.

My practical weapon sparring experience is with what you would call here boffers. During the 1980's and early 1990's I was an on again off again member of a an informal (to put it mildly) non historical sparring group with little formal education but a great deal of energy and enthusiasm. What we lacked in formal training we made up for in fearless enthusiasm and a fairly sincere interest in finding out what worked and what didn't. We took on all comers, from "experts" of the asian martial arts (very few actually were) to college fencers, to boxers and wrestlers, to frankly, any psycho who walked down the street and wanted to try to knock one of us out.

We called this activity "sham battles". I think it was a bit differen't from the normal 'boffer' type play that you see. We used fairly heavy armor, almost all non historical stuff made up from scavenged sports equipment, motorcycle gear, duct tape, and scrap rugs, foam rubber, and sheet metal. Think ren faire meets road warrior. We also used almost any kind of weapon which could remotely be made marginally safe, such as hunting bows with tennis balls on the tips of the arrows, nets, lassos, flails, fire extinguishers, fireworks... really almost anything that didn't seem certain to maim or kill someone. Over the years we had a few encounters with some local SCA groups here in New Orleans (though most were based out in the suburbs) and they always considered us "too freestyle" and too violent. Our best guys could always beat their guys.

People did sometimes get hurt, it wasn't a very responsible group. The activity started among a bunch of reckless, unsupervised teenagers who evolved into reckless, unsupervised young adults, and we generally engaged in it, often drunk, in dangerous places (such as the cities many maze like graveyards, mugger haunted Armstrong park, and the then abandoned Jax Brewery) where were not allowed to be.

The people involved in this sparring group were mostly hard core punk rockers, and we engaged in the activity at least partially as a method of honing our street fighting skills for the many unpleasant encounters we had on a daily basis with all of the more bellicose examples of more mainstream cultural factions, all of whom hated us: redneck tourists, street gangsters, pinky ring wearing mobster wannabees, long haired hessians, frat boys, bikers. I suffered many severe beatings in those days, but I honestly believe that the very intense stick sparring we did on a regular basis greatly improved our chances in real fights where despite almost always being outsized and outnumbered, we usually more than held our own.

Now that I'm old and decrepit, and have a relatively easy white collar job, I no longer contemplate the sublime joy of the barroom sucker punch on some well diserving loudmouth redneck with the same relish I once did. Instead, I prefer to channel my martial instincts into Historical research and tinkering with game systems, both on the computer and for paper and pencil. I like to think my more colorful experiences have lent a certain slightly unique perspective on hand to hand combat, perhaps even enough to make up to some small extent for my considerable lapses in academic knowlege, though I could well be deluding myself. I paid a heavy price for some of those experiences, it helps to think they were worth something.

But here is where the last of the red flags have finally gone up. The majority of you gentle readers and arms enthusiasts, like most right-thinking people, were probably already against me as soon as I admitted not having a degree, drinking, or worse yet being a punk rocker, (and, certainly, a 'punk' in nearly every perjorative sense ot he word), and now even the last few open minded hold outs here will no doubt have mentally filed me in the 'round file' as soon as they read the word 'game'. What can i do but dig myself deeper into the hole. Yes, I do 'tinker with', and in fact occasionally play, role playing games.

Role playing games have a richly diserved reputation for banality, if not pure evil, among genuine historians and even military re-enactors, (let alone true renaisance martial artists!) but lets face it, most people with any knowlege at all about medieval arms and armor learned it from Role Playing Games. Certainly, the vast majority of what they learn is, to put it mildly, pure bullshit, but the fact remains this is the vector. Without getting into this in detail at this point, let me just say that my goal is to try to influence the culture of role playing games, so that they have a bit more of the type of the influence that I think strategic and tactical war games have had, in other words, toward actually disseminating a bit more of a realistic understanding of history in general into the culture at large.

This is my goal here on this list. I have some special projects I am working on and I'm trying to find out everything I can about classical and medieval combat. I have done a lot of research myself, though due to a limited budget I cannot alas afford the kind of library I would like to have. In addition to the vast resources avalable on the internet, have found many of Ewart Oakshott's (RIP) books to be very useful, The Archeology of Weapons sit's in a place of honor on my shelf, as I did the Martial Arts of Renaisance Europe which originally lead me to find what was then called HACA, the excellent Art of War treatises on Classical, Medieval and Rennaisance Warfare by Hans Delbruck, Christian Toblers translation "Secrets of German Medieval swordsmanship", John Warrys Warfare in the Classical World, and the various osprey press books to be useful specific military references to name a few, and various general histories, direct and interpreted, from Herodotus to Thucydidies, to Ceasars diaries, Tacitus' germania and agricola, Bernal Diaz account of Cortez conquests, the various sagas and ettas, to Barbara Tuchman's Distant Mirror, again just to name a few (and please pardon my atrocious spelling).

Though I have gleaned much from these worthy tomes, I am left with many unanswered questions, which I hope I am not wrong in guessing, some of the wiser and better educated ladies and gentlemen on this list might be able to help provide some guidance in.

This is who I am, and this is my purpose.

By the way, genuine Rip to Oakeshott, he was someone I looked up to, albiet from a great distance. I hope he is in Valhalla with another recently passed hero of mine, Joe Strummer. I look forward to getting to know the people who post to this forum.

Jean Henri Chandler
"We can't all be saints"
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Re: introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:51 am

Here are a few questions I have currently. Please forgive my profound ignorance and reply with as much indulgence as you can muster.

Does anyone on this list know what a Dacian Falx or Falces really looks like? Is there any definitive proof of precisely what it was exactly other than the image on Trajans column? I have seen some very provocative drawings in an Osprey book but nothing to back them up. I wonder if they are pure speculation, they are depicted there as much larger pole arms than the one on Trajans column.

Is there really such a thing as a 'scimetar' or is that some kind of western invention? At what point did arabs and turks begin using sabers and weapons like Tulwars or Shamshirs? I understood that straight swords were more in favor during the 1st crusade, is that true? The only scimetars I can find seem to be phony reproductions.

Why did the Atlatl fade out from use, and when presicely did it disappear in Europe, the Mediterranian, and central Asia? Based on the findings of modern Atlatl enthusiasts, and what I have read about many archers in the classical era, it sounds like the Atlatl would have had superior penetration to the bow or the sling in many cases. How am I wrong here?

Why wasn't brass used more as armor? What examples is anyone aware of where brass was used? My limited understanding of metalurgy leads me to believe that some modern brass alloys are stronger (and much less brittle) than bronze... I know the Romans used some brass helmets. Anybody know anything else about Brass armor?

Historians seem to distinguish between 'stabbing' and 'slashing' swords, but to my experience, what they are talking about as 'slashing' weapons are more realistically cutting or even chopping weapons. I would distinguish cutting from slashing or draw-cutting. Some weapons such as sabres seem more designed for the latter, while most 'cutting' swords I would tend to believe are more suitible for chopping or quick-cutting. It seems like a significant distinction to me, one which historians have ignored perhaps due to a dearth of practical experience cutting things with swords.

What is the purpose of double edges on a sword? I have a lot of experience sparring, and I find that I rarely use the 'outside' edge of any weapon I am using. Of course, I never actually cut anyone with a blade either (though i have done a lot of what they call on the ARMA website 'test cutting' on armor and pieces of meat and bones). I know there are some techniques depicted in the fechtbooks of using both sides of the blade, but I always assumed that the double edges were to cause more severe injuries when stabbing, i.e. to cut on both sides going in and out. Can someone explain this better?

Does anyone know where I can find a photo of a german "messer" sword, i.e. a single edged broad bladed cutting sword, (and not a gross-messer of which there are some reproduction examples available now)

What is the actual effect of 'pattern welding'. I have read many contradictory accounts. Some which imply that the Germanic tribes held pattern welded swords in great esteem, while others which claim that it was simply a method of dealing with inferior iron quality, and of making swords out of small pieces of iron, which was corrected with the arrival of the Barcelona hammer. Yet some seemingly reputable modern swordsmiths such as Kevin Cashen claim (if I understand corectly) to be making weapons which are superior in some respects to normal homogeneous high carbon steel weapons. I have the same question about wootz or 'damascus' steel weapons. I recently saw an article in popular science about how tiny trace amounts of vanadium altered the molecular crystaline structure of wootz steel, making it stronger and more flexible. I have also read vague references to phosphorous from bone used as fuel when smelting, playing an important role in "Viking" made pattern welded source

On a similar note, I have read that some european swords from the 12th - 14th centuries have been revealed in lab examination to have scores or even hundreds of folds in the steel. I thought only japanese weapons were made this way. How closely did the better European weapons hold up to Japanese blades?

What is the difference between asian or japanese (chain) Mail and 4 in 1 european chainmail? I gather the asian mail is lighter and weaker, but have never seen a concise explanation of this.

I have seen pictures of Russian armor described as bakharets, (sp) or "half armor", which looks like some form of ringmail, with close-set rings that remind me of the armor in many medieval paintings I have seen, which I used to always assume was a stylized depiction of (chain) Mail. Is there any evidence yet of the existence of armor made of rings sewn or laced to coats in the West?

Here is an idea for the use of the much reviled term "broadsword". Explain to me why it is a terrible idea to use it to describe what are now often (at least as foolishly) referred to as 'viking swords', those of the shape such as Oakeshottes type 7, i.e. broad bladed, with a minimal hand guard, a short grip suitible for only one hand, a single deep, wide fuller, and a rounded or spatulate tip relatively unsuitible for stabbing. In rpgs we call this type of weapon, used from the migration period and before through the viking age, and all over Europe, Central Asia, and North Africa, a broadsword, to disginguish from what we call a long sword, the more common later cruciform type.
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Re: introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:09 am

A picture of the 'ringmail' bakterets armor I mentioned in my last post can be found here

http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/medievalarmor/varang9c.htm
[image]http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/medievalarmor/varang9c.htm[/image]

Can anyone find me a good picture of a full suit of byzantine klibanion (lamellar and mail) armor?

two other questions:
Can anyone tell me where I can find an example of a Nordic / Germanic 'hewing spear'? From what I have read this is something like a bill or a naginata, but I can't find anything resembling this on the net.

Am I correct in assuming that the Germanic "Angon" Javelin was the same thing as a Roman Pilum?

I have read unconfirmed descriptions of a roman variant of scale armor (lorica Plumata or lorica squamata), in which each of the scales are bent 90 degrees at the top and pierced with two holes, through which they are incorporated directly into a backing of (chain) Mail. The description I read further stated that this type of armor was so time consuming to make that it was only possible to make it with slave labor, and incredibly expensive even so, and it was only therefore used by cavalry, officers, and standard bearers. Many Roman sites describe scale armor as being inferior armor used by officers because it looked better. Certainly ordinary scale would be inferior protection to a "Lorica Segmentata", but if it was incorporated with mail it might be very good protection indeed. I also don't imagine ROman officers would place their appearance over protection, why not wear colorful silk scarves instead of armor?

I see a lot of roman equipment from re-enactment groups and armorers for the early Imperial period, but very little for the Republican period and even less for the late Empire period, where they revived Roman Cavalry. In "Warfare in the Classical World" there is a provocative illustration of a Roman Cavalry soldier decked out head to foot in armor of fine scales and iron bands. It looked lke very impressive, flexible armor. They backed this up with some contemporary quotes about cavalry being completely clad armored. Can anyone clarify this further and / or direct me to good resources where I can find depictions and descriptions of this type of armor?
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Re: introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby Guest » Sat Dec 28, 2002 9:09 am

Jeanry, <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow! Talk about a lot of questions! First things first. We don't judge people by thier education and never judge a book by it's cover. My personal belief and not that of ARMA is a person can receive and education through study, such as colleage, and also receive an education from experience such as being the in military or the peace corp. for example.

You asked: "Does anyone know where I can find a photo of a german "messer" sword" Windless Steel has one for sale here and a good photo, I'm not sure of the historical value: http://www.medieval-weaponry.com/en-us/dept_592.html

Hans Heim of Germany may be able to tell you more on the Messer should he read this post.

Here is Historical Artwork depicting the Messer along with the Dussack: http://www.thearma.org/arttalk/at31.htm

You asked: "Historians seem to distinguish between 'stabbing' and 'slashing' swords, but to my experience, what they are talking about as 'slashing' weapons are more realistically cutting or even chopping weapons."

Long Sword/War Sword/Norman Sword etc. are military weapons and are "cutters" and are also used to "slash" with and "draw cut". A rapier is civilian defense weapon and is not used for "slashing" like you see in Hollywood films but instead a "thrusting weapon"

Hopeful Anwser for You: Cut is a cut and a slash is a slash or a schnitt in the german schools or a slicing cut such as at the forearms or hands. Rapiers are not a slashing weapon just a thrusting weapon.

Here is some termionology from ARMA's definations page, perhaps this may help you: "Schnitt" (“slice”) Draw cuts and slicing pulls. To direct with strength and bodies movement, Bruch over the arms or the joints with the sword-edge, from above Oberers Schnitts, or from below Unterer Schnitts. One of the “three wonders (Drey Wunder)

You asked about the double edge sword: There is the true edge (edge facing your opponent) and the false edge (edge facing away). When cutting, both edges are used. Cutting at the opponent with the true edge, but don't leave the edge out there, bring it back just as quick, if the opponent attempts to close on you then he/she may be cut with the false edge. John Clements demonstrates cutting with false edge in the video section under the video (John C. performs two
displacements)

Cutting with the false edge: Krumphau / Krump (“Crooked” or “Twisted Cut” or "Bend Strike") 1. A downwards cut with the false edge made with crossed or twisted wrists. 2. Any strike with crossed hands. One of the Meisterhau. The Krumphau may be delivered with a slicing or pulling action by the back edge of the blade while close-in and blades are crossed. The German system taught cuts in the opening phase of combat not to be made from the offside, so that the arms &amp; wrists would not be twisted. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Off subject but you asked/talked about role playing games. People shouldn't judge a person just because they play role playing games. Many people play and it doesn't make them less of a person. I know business owners, lawyers and doctors that frequent the escape of a good role playing or war gaming session. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

ARMA is not concerned with role playing or fantasy, it's not what we are about, some members do play but role playing and "Historical" not "Classical" Fencing are to seperate things entirely. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

My time is up and I most return to work. I hope I helped you out some what. Talk to you soon. Cheers,

Todd

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Re: introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby Gene Tausk » Sat Dec 28, 2002 11:13 am

You ask a lot of questions, amigo! But that is good - that is how knowledge is advanced. The best questions ultimately lead to more questions.

I think I can answer two of your questions, from personal research and experience.

An example of baxarets has already been provided to you by another poster. If you want to see a "live" example - the Russian city of Vladimir, located about 2 hours outside of Moscow, has an arms and armour museum (and a great diorama of the Mongol attack on Kiev). You will find several examples of baxarets there, preserved very well.

A Dacian flax is hard to find examples of because Romanians, the modern day descendents of the Dacians, became more Roman than the Romans themselves and do not like to talk about their ancestors before Romanization occurrred. Sort of similar to the Arabs who view all life before Mohammad as the "time of darkness." Some examples of flaxes can be found, however, in the National Museum in Bucharesti. If you are interested, I might be able to provide you some links (my dad is Romanian and still keeps up with the Romanian community here in the U.S.)

Hope this helps.

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Re: introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby George Turner » Sat Dec 28, 2002 6:07 pm

Hi Jeanry,

I don't know if anyone is sure why the Atlatl faded away. However, it seems more suited to large game, and isn't a very stealthy weapon for small, easily startled things like rabbits. It might be that as hunting pressures increased, moving slow with a bow brought more food home. On the flip side, if you're not used to using one for hunting, I doubt you'd try one in combat. There's also the problem of carrying fewer rounds of "ammo" than with a bow. Once it was completely out of use, it would no longer be a known option.

As for the brass question, it was used to a limited extent, but aside from some Roman helmets, I don't think it showed up in much armour. Steel is simply better, and brass doesn't have many advantages over bronze. However, they didn't know how to get pure zinc anyway, and used calamine (Zinc Carbonate) instead. This may have made it much more problematic to produce than bronze. However, some of the bronzes have outstanding performance, such as 52100 (the bronze, not the bearing steel), which is a phosphor bronze with about 10% tin. I don't know if anyone's checked ancient bronze for phosphor content, but it only needs to be present in trace amounts, and was in their other metals anyway, due to their smelting practices. I think the brass was mostly used for its pretty color, but wasn't used to any great extent till fairly recently.

Best Regards,

George Turner

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Re: introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby Hans Heim » Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:47 am

Hi Jean Henry,

here follows a link to a Langes Messer, not a Grosses Messer.

http://www.hermann-historica.com/hist/42auction/lot/lot-d_290.htm

Hans
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Re: introduction etc. (THANKS!)

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:31 pm

First of all, let me thank the members of this Forum as a group for your friendly and very helpful responses. I have learned a lot already, and hope to continue to do so.
"We can't all be saints"

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Re: introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:39 pm

Todd, thanks for your comments. I have a few specific responses.

Thanks for the link on the messer, but I already had that image of the grosse-messer. It has been reproduced by a couple of sword makers apparently based on the drawing you also show. I was looking for the shorter single handed messer which is also depicted in several of the fechtbooks, including Tallhoffers I believe. If I remember correctly you can see a drawing and read a description on page 80 of "martial arts of renaisance europe". Anyway it's in the index. It's hard to find a picture on the internet partially because 'messer' means knife in german, so you end up with a lot of web sites about cutlery.

Your comments on draw cutting, related fechtbook terminology (which I'm only just now learning) and the use of the 'false' edge of a sword were very interesting, thank you.
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Baxarets, "Ringmail?"

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:52 pm

Thanks for your responses mr Tausk. Yes I do ask a lot of questions, I appreciate the great patience and friendliness I have encountered here.

Alas, the likelyhood of my being able to take a trip to Russia to view Baxarets (sp?) is unlikely due to financial constraints. I am aware of several images available online, there are some examples displayed by the hermitage museum and at least one beautiful coat at the (If I remember correctly) metropolitan museum of New York.

One of the confusing things about Baxarets, is that it seems to refer to various types of amrmor. I have seen the name (with various spellings) used to descrihbe leather corslets or coats reinforced with small vertical or horisontal metal plates (some appear riveted, others merely sewn on) for byrnies or hauberks of mail into which either thin reinforcing bands somewhat like lamellae, or large plates or disks have been incorporated to strengthen it. And in at least one case, I have seen a leather coat with rows of iron or steel disks sewn onto it. This is the image I posted a link to. The apperance of the rings reminded me strikingly of what I had always thought was a fanciful depcition of (chain) Mail in many Medieval paintings and statues. I know the very existence of so called "ringmail" among historians, is very debatable and has never been proven as far as I know. I myself didn't really believe in it, but I found this photograph of armor (from a Russian Re-enactment group calling themselves the Alexander Nevsky society) to be very challenging. I'm wondering what the rest of you, with so much more expertise than I have, think of this image?

I would LOVE to see an image of a Dacian Falx. I am aware of the rather tragic History of Dacia and, to a lesser extent of the unfortunately so frequently very tragic history of Romania, but I had no idea any of these weapons had been preserved. If you could send me a link to a photo or even a good, archeologically based drawing I would be very grateful indeed. Thanks again for you reply!

Jeanry
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Re: introduction, questions (Atlatls and Brass)

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon Dec 30, 2002 4:06 pm

Mr Turner, thanks for your reply.

Your comments about the Atlatl are interesting. I also vaguely suspected that, as you surmise, it fell out of favor as a hunting weapon and therefore wasn't available in the arsenal, as it were, for a military weapon. It makes sense, perhaps due to a decline in very large game animals. As for the effects of it's bulk and the 'ammo' issue, people certainly had no problem carrying various type sof javelins around. There are some historians who have speculated that the Veritum or 'weavers beam', a javelin with a throwing thong, may have been a revolutionary military - technological breakthrough. From what I have read of the Atlatl (i really need to make one myself and try it!) it would have been a step beyond the weavers beam in range, accuracy, and penetrating power.

Your comments about Brass and Bronze were also very interesting. Again, I suspected that it may have been some lack of basic raw materials. I was aware how hard - sought Tin was to make bronze after all. I know there are some types of bronze which are very good performance, some would have been sharper than steel though considerably more brittle, but according to some metalurgical charts I've seen I think some specific alloys of brass may have been even stronger. (I'll try to find my source for this and post it) There seems to have been a greater tradition of the general use of brass in the middle east and among arabs, at least based on popular imagery. Does anyone know if brass was used as armor or for any military purposes in the 'orient'? Did they perhaps have better sources of Zinc? it might be something to look into!

Anyway, this opens fascinating new avenues to explore and a lot to think about, thank you for your input. One avenue worth looking into are some of the fairly well documented early (especially greek) trade routes and what commodities they were seeking... I'd also appreciate reading anyone elses further thoughts on the issue...

Does anyone know enough about metalurgy to say whether brass is more flexible and / or less brittle than bronze? I own an old brass trumpet which seems to bend when battered (and it has been alot!) but never even comes close to cracking or breaking.
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Re: introduction, questions (Messer)

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon Dec 30, 2002 4:12 pm

herr Heim,

thank you very much for that link! That is exactly what i was looking for. What a beautiful weapon. It seems closely releated to the Falchion, yet different in some specific ways. I find it interesting that like the Gross Messer, it has this unusual extra guard, in this example in the form of a clamshell. I wonder if this somehow reflects on the way the blade was used. Also, this blade looks a bit thinner and longer than the one I have seen drawings of, and has a longer handle, I wonder if there are yet other variants other than "langes-messer" and the "grosse-messer" or if there are different types of "langes messer" I also wonder if there is a connection to the long sax, though I believe the long sax has it's cutting edge on the straight side, as with the shorter saxes and screamsaxes. Anyway, thanks again for posting that link, it is very helpful to me in my endeavors.

Filen Danke !
JR
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Re: introduction, questions from an amatuer

Postby John_Clements » Thu Jan 02, 2003 12:36 pm

Hello,

Actually ARMA has already consulted and advised with a major computer company on their games, and assisted with the new highly considered "Ring of Steel" RPG from Driftwood Publishing. Our Provo Study Group member even wrote it.
I also have an essay tucked away on the very subject of combat in FRPGs, believe it or not, which I will putonline sometime. I was pretty active with them as well as LARP in the '80s and even as recent as '92. So, though the subject is on the fringe of Renaissance martial arts, your post is not too far off. I am sure folk here will email you about it.

JC
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Renaisance Combat mechanics

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Jan 02, 2003 1:13 pm

Mr Clements, delighted to read your post. Based on a few other things of yours which I have read in the past, I had thought you were very against rpgs, which as I've noted, is not an unreasonable position to take. The culture of rpgs seems to be dominated by myopia, but I can see now that your position relative to rpgs is somewhat similar to my own. If I read you clearly, it sounds like you reject the status quo of that world because it's not reaching anywhere near it's potential.
Would it be acceptable, then, to discuss the mechanics of weapon and hand to hand combat here, broken down in such a way that might be applicable to rpgs (but I believe, would also be of interest and value to martial artists?) I feel that really just about every rpg, including computer simulations, which I have seen to date (I have not encountered "ring of steel" yet) fails to address many basic issues of the mechanics of actual fighting in real life.
If you deem that it might be appropriate to discuss in this forum I would like to explain some specific examples of what I mean.

Jean
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Jake_Norwood
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Re: Renaisance Combat mechanics

Postby Jake_Norwood » Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:18 pm

Hey all...I've been away...

Jeanry-

On the topic of RPGs I guess I'm the man around here. "The Riddle of Steel" (www.theriddleofsteel.net) is the RPG that John was referring to. I've gamed with John and I know that a good number of us ARMA guys are gamers. I think that, as John said, your post was actually pretty close as far as where a lot of us get our start. In the ARMA we try to separate the RP-ing from the WMA, but that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy both. I actually got into ARMA as research when writing my game years ago, and found the ARMA to be more addicting (and a driving force behind both re-writing and publishing TROS).

As far as discussing mechanics here goes, I'm cool with it and I'd love to discuss the way that I approached things with TROS, both as far as triumphs and failures go, as well as anything of the sort, so long as the moderators are cool with it (and, I imagine, the discussion stick to just one thread).

You can check out a limited but very cool computerized simulation of TROS combat at www.theriddleofsteel.net/support (get the one that was recently updated). It's pretty self-explanatory.

Happy Hacking,
Sen. Free Scholar
ARMA Deputy Director


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