Grip and Swing technique

[Andrew Kesterson]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting that there are different techniques between WMA and EMA; all I'm saying is that there is a great deal of carry over. If you come into Longsword from Kenjutsu, you shouldn't need to start re-learning from the very start, because so much of it really does transfer over.

I just noticed that some people have the opinion that no skills you learn in EMA are transferrable through to WMA. And, like others have said, that's just not true because there are so many similarities. Either way, good debate, just trying to keep things real. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Also, I can't find a reference to it anywhere, but the Japanese actually did use double edged swords before the development of the Tachi, and then the Katana. Seeing as most of Japan started in China, their swords also descended from the chinese double-edged sword. But when they started using cavalry, they got tired of their straight, double-edged blades getting stuck in people, so the Tachi - and later Katana - were born.

[Jake_Norwood]

Used them or not, is that what is learned in modern kendo and kenjitsu schools? Nope.

And of course all physical and martial activity carries some cross-over. Some good, and some bad. For example if you raise a longsword in front of your face like you do a katana/boken/shinai, you'll knock your own teeth out with the cross.

I've seen it done.

Jake

[Patrick Hardin]

Really the best way to learn how to properly grip a sword is by test-cutting. If you can learn to cut well, you don't have to think at all about where your fingers are on the handle or the pommel. Grips vary from person to person. Someone with shorter, thick fingers might not find the same grips comfortable that a person with longer, thin fingers would. But if they can both cut well, then both grips are valid. Grips can also vary from sword to sword, in terms of handle length, pommel type, etc. There are just too many variables to worry about. You have to find what's most comfortable to you. If you're just starting out, don't worry about where your fingers are to begin with. Cut until you instinctively know where they go. That's the beauty of RMA: it's all a custom fit. You don't have to conform to a lot of minute details like you do in EMA; instead, you learn them as you go, by doing.

As for cutting, IMO, the more joints you utilize, the better the cut will be. You have three major pivot points: shoulder, elbow, and wrist. You have to use them all in a cut. And don't neglect the wrist. It's what gives a lot of the speed to your cut. And, like Jake said, use your grip to maximize your leverage, and coordinate your cut with a step, to maximize your power. Of course, this is all a lot to think about, but like I say, do test-cutting until you don't have to think about it. Hope this helps.

Patrick Hardin

[Jaron Bernstein]

"I just noticed that some people have the opinion that no skills you learn in EMA are transferrable through to WMA."

Don't count me among such folks. From what I have seen, the hip throw is the hip throw. In any art. As one example.

But for grips, a straight sword with a scentstopper pommell a cross and 2 cutting edges is used differently in many (but certainly not all) ways from a curved one with one cutting wedge edge and different grip design. Especially when you get past the basic cuts and stances. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[G.MatthewWebb]

Jake,

You wrote:

"When swinging you want to coordinate your step (usually a passing step traversing out at about 45 degrees with a following recovering pivot back with the foot that you just passed by) so that the foot hits the ground when your arms are fully extended and the torque of your hips and arms delivers the blow in the position of "langort" (long point). If you strike from the right, step from the right, etc."


For clarity, which "foot hits the ground when the arms are fully extended", the foot stepping forward or the rear foot pivoting behind?

Matthew Webb
Oklahoma City, OK

[James_Knowles]

For clarity, which "foot hits the ground when the arms are fully extended", the foot stepping forward or the rear foot pivoting behind?

The stepping foot (formerly the rear foot, now the forward foot), as it's the only foot being lifted off the ground.

The rear foot (formerly the forward foot) is pivoting, i.e. not leaving the ground. It's just rotating from toes to the opponent to a 45 degree angle to the outside.

[Jake_Norwood]

For clarity, which "foot hits the ground when the arms are fully extended", the foot stepping forward or the rear foot pivoting behind?

It depends. One or the other, depending on what you're doing. Sometimes it's the lead foot (most of the time, in fact), but on some occassions you end up sidestepping first, and attacking the new opening--that's when you strike with the landing of the foot that is triangle-ing back.

For clarification, that's what I meant by pivot--a recovering triangle step.

Jake

[Brian Hunt]

To hopefully finish clarifing this, remember that whatever side you finish your strike on, you will have the foot on that side end or finish in a position behind you, with the front foot pointed towards your opponent and the back foot turned out at about a 45 degree angle. This helps keep you from cutting your own leg.

For a standard, forward moving Zornhaw, start with your left foot forward, and your sword held in vom tag either at your head or your right shoulder, then as you start to do your cut (cutting downward at an angle to the left with your true edge - the path will generally be from your opponents left cheek and coming out at about his right knee), step forward with your right foot (a passing step), the right foot should then be the one hitting the ground. You will finish this cut with your sword now on your left side, in one of a couple of different guards. I usually finish with the sword on my left side, my arms extended down, and the point of my sword towards the earth.

To do this strike moving backwards, you would start the same way, but instead you will pass back with your left foot while striking, therefore your left foot will be the one hitting the ground.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt.
GFS.

[Andrew Kesterson]

Not to go off topic, but what exactly is a "scentstopper" pommel? Why does it have that name? Saw it mentioned in Jaron's post and elsewhere, and the term confuses me. Possibly because they were popular for bashing folks in the nose with? <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

[M Wallgren]

The front foot should always hit the ground at the same time as the blade hit the target, I belive!

(The slow motion version of Caspars strike in "Medival Meat Cutting" from the ARMA Ogden site is showing this in a great way, the power gets imense!!!)

Martin

[M Wallgren]

A pommel like the one on the Albion NG Mercenary, NG Talhoffer, NG Ringeck... A "dropshape". Type T in one of the typologys...

Martin

[Jake_Norwood]

The front foot should always hit the ground at the same time as the blade hit the target, I belive!

Gotta disagree here. Usually, yes, but not always. *A* foot should hit the ground when you strike. Sometimes the first step is just to get into position, however.

Doebringer says:

"You should also show reach in your fencing as is suitable and not step too wide, so that you can pull back and be ready for another step backwards or forwards. Often two shorter steps will happen before a long one. And often you must make a short leap with short steps, and often you must make a good step or leap."

It's the same thing as taking a step, then striking on another step--something you do all the time.

(The slow motion version of Caspars strike in "Medival Meat Cutting" from the ARMA Ogden site is showing this in a great way, the power gets imense!!!)

True that.

Jake

[M Wallgren]

Gotta disagree here. Usually, yes, but not always. *A* foot should hit the ground when you strike. Sometimes the first step is just to get into position, however.

I stand Corrected... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Bruskotter]

Does Doebringer say that you shouldn't hold the pommel of a long sword?

"Know also that a good fencer should before all things know his sword and be able to grip it well with both hands, between the cross guard and the pommel since you will then be safer than if you did grip it with one hand on the pommel. And you will also strike harder and truer, with the pommel swinging itself and turning in the strike you will striker harder than if you were holding the pommel."

So how do you hold a long sword again? I think I'm confusing myself worse sitting here trying to interpret these things without guidance. Again, I'm a beginner and confused.

[John_Clements]

Matthew, just fyi, you need to reregister with your full name or a last initial as per our Form use guidelines. Please do not post again before doing so or future posts will be deleted. Thanks.

JC