Dressage, horses and myths of WMA.

[MurrayMoore]

I saw a pretty good article in a horse magazine (which is now packed away as a present until Christmas).

The article was talking about some of the modern misconceptions of dressage (commanding a horse to move quickly).

The modern myth is that the med. warhorse was a heavy lumbering beast of about 18 hands, but the author of the article said that from looking at 16th and 17th Euro manuscripts, they found that the warhorse was about 15 hands, nimble and quick, and that the med. warrior was much lighter on the horse than is commonly thought. When I get the article back from my kid after Christmas, I'll give you all more details, since the idea of looking at the old manuscripts (16th and 17 cent) is right up our alley.

Murray

[Casper Bradak]

Yes, most of what I know about medieval horses I learned from reading A Knight and His Horse, by Ewart Oakeshotte (sorry if I misspell), in that he goes over several kinds used.
He explains how coarsers (smaller, faster horses) were used for combat, and the large destriers were used only for tournament, and the horses training reflected their different uses, and their positions would not be switched.

[Ross Dean]

Murray and Casper

Interesting thread! I own a 17.3 hand gelding (castrated Cleveland Bay male) and a 15.3 hand mare (Clydesdale-Thouroughbred cross) and have some observations to contribute (in the UK, a "hand" is 4 inches or 10.16 cm and the measurement is from the ground to the point where the neck and back meet).

In riding quite fast and with purpose over difficult terrain with groups of other horses and riders for hours at a time, I have found the smaller horse to be a much safer ride in that she is more manoeuvrable and easier to control. The larger horse requires much more space and time in which to work. This in turn places much greater demands on the rider to anticipate terrain and the actions of other horses and react accordingly.

I agree that destriers (large knightly horses), which were very well trained and expensive to keep in good physical condition, were probably reserved for tournaments in late medieval times. I suspect that the horses actually used in war had low survival rates and so less expensive horses were used. I wonder if tournament prestige may be why large horses of say 16.2 hands and above (in the British system) were originally bred in late medieval western Europe?

Anyone know if this is the case?

[Matt Easton]

There are records from Edward I's campaigns that show that quite cheap horses were used for war, and were indeed classed as disposable - there are matching accounts for their purchase (there was a shortage of all types of horse in England during his reign) and those of Destriers, and the tournament horses were about 4 times the price (from memory).
Not that surprising, given that Destriers were somewhat like a Ferrari compared to a Land Rover, and were unlikely to get killed (especially after the introduction of the barrier).

Matt

[Jay Vail]

This is very interesting. Besides Oakshott's book does anybody have any cites for information on this?

[Guest]

This is very interesting. Besides Oakshott's book does anybody have any cites for information on this?

It's kind of everybody's guess. I know there was one book by the Museum of London about some excavation finds, but I think it is out of print. Another out of print book is The Medieval Warhorse: Origin, Development and Redevelopment
by Davis, R.H.C. The only cite I know of supporting Oakeshott's opinion is Ann Hyland's "The medieval warhorse:From Byzantium to the Crusades", a book, however, that is a prime example of what harm amateur scholarship can do if running amok. Hyland is a horse lover and breeder, but has practically no training as a historian, or scholar for that matter. As such, she frequently relies on translation of dubious quality, jumps to conclusions long abandoned by academic research, and her book has been shredded in some academic reviews.

One thing I find interesting is the so-called "Spanish-norman" breed, an attempt at re-breeding the warhorse by crossing the andalusian (small, fast, typical courser) with the Percheron (French draft horse) while keeping it at a 50% Andalusian minimum. Interestingly, these horses are MUCH larger than Andalusians (average height 17 hands) while not as slow as the Percheron. Andalusians are known to have been prized horses (William the Conqueror was famous for having received one as a gift) but were extremely expensive, and so probably not in too widespread use. It is interesting to see that even a fraction of Percherong genetic stock is able to increase the size of the horse considerably.

I think one problem people frequently make when dismissing the type of Belgians and Percherons is that most of them have been bred to draft horses only in the last few centuries. The fact that they claim descent from warhorses doesn't mean any claim of warhorses looking and behaving precisely like them. On the other hand, they are also frequently underestimated. Frisian horses, for example, are even used in dressage sport and as such can be quite agile. At the same time, they can pull carts and carriages.

I am not quite sure what the current state of academic research on the issue is, but the last discussions I was aware of made the whole issue close to a philosophical question, with discussions lacking any real HARD evidence either way. I'm no historian myself, though, and have no access to recent academic journals in the field.

[Guest]

Ross,

Please e-mail me I need to ask you a private question. Also, do you know of any sources on actual historical medieval horsemanship such as how to sit the saddle in combat, use of sword on horseback and caring for the horse? Anyone?

Cheers,
Todd

[Jeffrey Hull]

AOW by Oakeshott, and a book about Celtic warriors by Allen & Reynolds, talk about and/or illustrate that the early chariots of the La Tene Celts were likely pulled by stout quick little horses, not unlike those of Norse, Mongols, and todays Welsh ponys. I found that interesting. JH

[Guest]

I tournament joust and have used both a large horse (over 16) and a smaller horse (over 15). Both do well and I feel training is the real key. One see's many different styles and sizes of horse in todays tournaments and the larger horse doesn't always carry the victory.

[steve hick]

>>Ross,

Please e-mail me I need to ask you a private question. Also, do you know of any sources on actual historical medieval horsemanship such as how to sit the saddle in combat, use of sword on horseback and caring for the horse? Anyone?

Cheers,
Todd<<

There is a section on this in "The Kings Mirror" (Norweigan ca 1240) and Dom Duarte's entire work "...Bem Cavalgar" covers this ca 1430. The first has been translated, and while the sections covering these topics are not long, the entire work is very interesting from a historical, cultural POV.

Steve

[Casper Bradak]

Well, at least as far as using the sword on in rossfechten, a lot of manuals deal with that at least. Masters Talhoffer and Ringek are 2.
The impression of the use of horses I've gotten from what little I know is that coursers were just better suited to combat than destriers, due to their size and speed, but by no means cheap or disposable, but not nearly so valuable as a destrier. A courser would be used in joust if a destrier couldn't be afforded, but a destrier wouldn't be risked in combat.
I've read several accounts of untrained coursers being picked for combat and given sort of crash course training for battle because they were all that was available, and therefore cheaper than a true warhorse courser, which I'm sure happened quite often, especially to poorer warriors. Training and breeding and fitness seem to have been the major points of expense for them.

[Guest]

Thanks Steve

[steve hick]

Todd-

The King's Mirror is available in translation, there are several versions (reprints) of

Laurence Marcellus Larson, The King's Mirror ((Speculum Regale - Konungs Skuggsja), New York: American-Scandinavian Foundation, 1917

Dom Duarte's work is still in Portugese, I and 1 or 2 others are playing around with translating this.

Duarte, King of Portugal, 1391-1438, Livro da ensinança de bem cavalgar toda sela que fez el-Rey Dom Eduarte de Portugal e do Algarve e Senhor de Cueta, [Lisbon] : Impr. Nacional-Casa da Moeda, 1986

This latter book is ALL ABOUT horses and horsemanship and fighting with lance (and a little sword) from the selection, care and training of the horse.

There are a number of other works, this one, in Spanish has been recently published, and edited by one of the ARMA advisors, and covers hosremanship, equipment, training for the joust and war, and how to deal with horsey problems.

Juan Quixada de Reayo &amp;#8211; (Spain) 1548. Doctrina del arte de la cavalleria. Colophon, Medina del Campo, P. de Castro, impressor, actually a text on mounted combat. Quijada de Reayo, Noel Fallows (Editor); Un Texto Inedito Sobre La Caballeria Del Renacimento Espanol, la Doctrina del arte de la caualleriá , de Juan Quijada de Reayo; Liverpool University Press, 31 May, 1997.

I should finish my translation of this, its really done, just not usable by anyone but me.

Steve