ReMA vs. MMA

[M Wallgren]

Because they focused on weapons, obviously. Also, the Samurai of Japan were skilled in a technique which involved standup/ground grappling with a dagger.

Many of the manuals have almost 50% of the plates dedicated to unarmed combat. And many of them refer to unarmed combat as the foundation of fencing.

cheers

Martin

[JeffGentry]

Hye Martin

many manuals refer to fighting in ernest and in play. This play I think of as sparring. And this Sparring could be applyed to use in competing with other Wrestlers and fighter to test oneself and to get a better understandig of ones art.

There are alot of account's in other place's were town's/fight school's got together and had a tournement with wooden weapon's were they were playing and they went to first blood, That wood indicate to me that they probably also did use ringen in play probably along the same line's.

Check out this article on a famous tournament fighter of the 15th century.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Lalaing.htm

it's not unarmed it is an example though of MMA type of tournemant's, and they weren't very gentle.


Jeff

[M Wallgren]

Thanks Jeff!

[Mike Cartier]

Quite so, but many of those rules make effective ground fighting far easier. I know that the attacks forbidden in rules 1-11 would be the preferred responses to a ground situation in quite a few systems (including at least some Medieval wrestling systems, unless I'm entirely mistaken).

Many of the rules of the modern UFC favor wrestlers or strikers rather han BJJers. The addittion of rounds works directly against small ground fighters who seek to wear down the big men, the curbing of knees on the ground to the head takes away a very valuable ground attack . In the beginning the UFC was just like the vale Tudo events in Brasil, the only rules being no biting and no eye gouging. This is not because these things are deadly, its because they create permanent injury. i have been eye poked several times, i have seen it drop grown men to thier knees and I have seen it do absolutly nothing. You seem to forget that a gorund fighter can also eye goug and bite and when a wrestler is dominating you he can bite and eye gouge much more effectively than you. Boxing doesn't allow headbutts either it hardly makes boxing non combative though does it.

All this stuff about sport not being good enough is not very in the spirit of western martial arts, the application of combat arts to sporting environments is the back bone of western martial arts, this willingness to test against a live, non cooperative opponent is at the core of all the western arts.

of course the rules make the sport and the sport the art.But MMA has fewer rules than any fighting environment we can test in, you give up a few rules but you gain much from training against live highly skilled opponents. Drilling is not fighting, if you train eye attacks all you can do is drill, i trained in eye attacks for many years, there is no realsitic way to train it that isn't controlled, its too dagerous to do in an open enviroment, noones wants to be blinded for life.

[M Wallgren]

Again it seems that there is a missconception of what ringen is, in my oppinion!

Ringen is wrestling with a few srikes and kicks. In adition to this there is a few dirty tricks referd to as verboten ringen (forbidden). But the majority of the technics are armlocks, leglocks, throws and takedowns. Much as in modern wrestling but whit the safty off.

A friend of mine who is an elite sportswrestler, gave me that qoute. He found a lot that was very familliar to him and had alot to help us with in our interpretations of Talhoffers plates from 1467. We will intencify this cooperation this summer. He has kindly arranged for us to use his clubs facilitys to train in with a mat and equippmet.

I hope in the near future to show in videos what happen when a ringen martial artist sparr agains a Mixed Martial Artist.

Have a nice day!

Martin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike

MMA has fewer rules than any fighting environment we can test in, you give up a few rules but you gain much from training against live highly skilled opponents

I totaly agree Mike, and in some of the smaller local type event's, from the one's i've seen, they will make the first few match's between begginer's who are not highly skilled but have minimal training.

With that in mind i think it would be a reasonable addition to our other training.

Unless we do some sort of "NHB" type of sparring with very few rule's we will never realy be sure of what or how to use it, some thing's will be much easier to do other's we will figure out how to do in an enviroment of resistance and the MMA is the only real place to do this without going to jail.

If you want to learn to type, you type, you want to learn to fight using ringen, you have to fight using ringen.

Jeff

[M Wallgren]

My point exactly, thanks Jeff!

[Jake_Norwood]

Fact is, AFAIK, there's no one out there skilled enough in ringen-specific techniques to "take it there" quite yet.

This is apples and oranges, anyway. Both are fruit, but they're not quite the same...

Jake

[Dave Nathan]

M Wallgreen: I agree with your above statement, that MMA does not favor BJJers who are only skilledin BJJ. However, it also doesn't favor pure strikers or pure wrestlers. It's called MMA, because everyone has to be good at everything in order to compete at the highest level. Also, as Royce Gracie and Dan Severn demonstrated in the early UFC events, BJJ and wrestling are the two most vital parts of MMA, because it's a fact of trial that the pure grappler with submissions will defeat the pure striker. However, now that everyone has a general understanding of ground fighting, striking has become more important as a means to win a fight. Despite thise, BJJ specialists still have their place in MMA, because BJJ is the only successfully practiced art where one can win consistantly while fighting defensively.

Look at fighters such as Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (and his twin brother), Ricardo Arona, Dean Lister, and many Gracies for illustration. They have all won against more than capable opponents, while fighting in the trademark defensive BJJ ground fighting style. Not to say that more offensive wrestlers with a good ground and pound haven't beaten their share pf BJJ fighters. Recently, Fedor Emelianenko, an avid wrestler, pulled 2 judge decision wins versus Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira.

Fact is, AFAIK, there's no one out there skilled enough in ringen-specific techniques to "take it there" quite yet.

This is apples and oranges, anyway. Both are fruit, but they're not quite the same...

There have been many successful fighters who trained in traditional arts similar to Ringen. However, there has bee a trend among them: they all adopt some sort of MMA trick (or many) into their skillset. Bas Rutten, for example, was a pretty one dimensioal Muay Thai specialist when he first went into MMA competition. As he was submitted by smaller fighters, he added submission and submission defense to his repetoire, and now he's considered one of the best of his era.

[Jake_Norwood]

There have been many successful fighters who trained in traditional arts similar to Ringen. However, there has bee a trend among them: they all adopt some sort of MMA trick (or many) into their skillset. Bas Rutten, for example, was a pretty one dimensioal Muay Thai specialist when he first went into MMA competition. As he was submitted by smaller fighters, he added submission and submission defense to his repetoire, and now he's considered one of the best of his era.

Hi Dave.

What's clear here is that you don't understand what Ringen really is. My computer (again!) deleted a nice, long, thought-out post a second ago (this is round 2), but I'll do my best to sum up.

First, MMA is what? A combination of strikes, takedowns, grappling and ground work for what is essentially submission or knock-out fighting. It is very effective, and highly varied, because a MMA guy could be mixing Wrestling, Muy Thai, and Boxing, or he could be a streetfighter with a high-school wrestling background, or he could be a BJJ guy that added in some Kempo for striking, etc. Thus MMA, I think, is defined by it's all-encompassing approach to the three combative ranges: Striking, Grappling/Takedown/the Clinch, and Groundwork. Groundwork seems to be a bigger focus, although the introduction of shorter rounds into UFC, as you explained, has hindered that somewhat.

Now what about Ringen? Ringen, it has to be understood, simply means "wrestling," and if I'm not mistaken is the same word used today for modern wrestling sports in Germany. Linguistically, the word is directly related to our English word "ring," as in the thing that goes around your finger. I think that a common translation of "grappling" is therefore very appropriate.

Ringen includes all three previously mentioned combative ranges. There are strikes and kicks (and loads of defenses against strikes). There is an enormous library of techniques at the middle (takedown/clinch) range, most all of which focus on putting your opponent onto the ground with you standing, or breaking his limbs (using the same principles that BJJ uses to submit--just harder and faster). Finally, it incorporates groundwork on a level that is beyond what is found in beginner BJJ courses (I'm a vetran of several), but rather on-par or even identical to many "advanced" BJJ techniques.

Ringen is also a member of the western family of unarmed combat--one that goes back to the Greeks and Romans or (arguably) even earlier. That same living tradition of wrestling and striking exists in the many forms of competitive wrestling and boxing in the west. Both, but especially wrestling, have proven their effectiveness in an MMA setting (e.g. Dan Severn, from the town I live in now, no less!). Because the word "Ringen" would have been used to describe what is in the manuals in addition to Dan's art, and because friendly wrestling is referred to on multiple occasions in the manuals, it is more than reasonable to assume that a proficient "ringen" guy of the past was a skilled ground wrestler--one unihibited by rules disallowing chokes and especially joint-locks (as Mr. Severn himself became "unihibited" to do so in those early UFC days).

The manuals also frequently reference the expectation that a reader is already familiar with basic wrestling. So why don't you see much ground fighting in the manuals? Generally speaking going to the ground IRL is dangerous for reasons already discussed (enemy buddies, uneven ground, the lack of a mat or even grass to fall on, the use of knives or rocks that could be just laying about...try training BJJ in an environment where you're allowed to pick things up or slam a guy's head into the not-so-soft ground...I have...it sucks).

Wrestling on the ground ("Knave wrestling," as Talhoffer calls it), was a common competitive sport--something that people trained in and competed in under rules that were much less saftey-concious as modern wrestling rules, but possibly on par with MMA rules. They did it, and you were expected to be good at it by the time you showed up in a fencing school, where you would be taught the mean, hard, not-so-friendly stuff.

The guard, mount, and rear mount are all positions that any kid who rough-houses knows. Side control is used in variations by all wrestlers. The BJJ philosophy of "achieve the dominant position before submitting" is all over ringen texts and all old German fighting in general ("vor und nach," anyone?). The only things that Ringen probably didn't have which BJJ and MMA do is probably the training methodologies and nice, soft mats. But I'm sure that countering advantages also existed (everything short of dieticians and personal trainers).

Thus I train in BJJ because it fills in gaps of understanding that my Ringen-using forebearers certainly had (albiet in different terms and priorities). They don't conflict at all. I've won BJJ matches using Ringen techniques, and I've won mock-knife-fights using stuff I picked up in BJJ mixed with disarms learned in Ringen.

I enjoy and respect BJJ and MMA. And that's specifically because I see them in many ways as a modern return to much of what Ringen has to offer.

Now only if they'd do UFC outside with stones and sticks nearby...then you'd see some changes, and you'd have ringen in about 3 minutes (with "good" ringen after about 6 months).

Try this: get a stun-gun (the handheld non-firing kind) and hide it in the uniform/gi/whatever of just one guy in the hall/dojo/whatever so that only he knows that he has it, but tell everyone else that someone has one. The change will be immense. Even in fights where the thing isn't present, principles of Ringen will begin to overtake much of what BJJ teaches, just because the threat of the fight going into "uncontrolled territory" is there. That's exactly what the level 2 and 3 Army Combatives guys do. (Army combatives is MMA, BTW, starting with BJJ and then moving from there--several of the instructors nation wide are MMA competitors as well.) I've been in matches like these, and I always did much, much better than normal, "safe" BJJ, even when striking was allowed. I attribute that improvement to Ringen's focus on countering the threat of a weapon, present or otherwise.

What I'm trying to say (in a very long-winded fashion), is that Ringen is an MMA, with many techniques focused on a particular threat (the posibility of weapon). It fills the requirements of MMA ranges, types of combat, and functionality, but not to it's competition structure.

And I'm still not aware of anyone training full-on in Ringen on a competivie MMA level *yet,* nor do I believe that we understand enough of the nuts-and-bolts of the system (groundwork especially) that we could go in "pure." Yet.

Jake

[M Wallgren]

M Wallgreen: I agree with your above statement, that MMA does not favor BJJers who are only skilledin BJJ.

Thank you! But I can´t take credit for that comment, it was Mike C. who said that, <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> !

There have been many successful fighters who trained in traditional arts similar to Ringen. However, there has bee a trend among them: they all adopt some sort of MMA trick (or many) into their skillset. Bas Rutten, for example, was a pretty one dimensioal Muay Thai specialist when he first went into MMA competition. As he was submitted by smaller fighters, he added submission and submission defense to his repetoire, and now he's considered one of the best of his era.

Again I stand confused over how everybodys concept of ringen doesn´t seem the same as ours.

In our interpretations, as stated above, we se very many simillaritys with modern freestyle wrestling. We tend to have shoot-like beginnings of our bouts. In "krieg" we often get down very fast and we often have to finish on the ground. This perhaps is because we do it wrong, I don´t know, but we do quite a lot of ringen sparring and technic training.

Could you describe your way of looking at ringen?

If we compare we might come to a conclution why it seems that ARMA Gimo/Östersund ringen seems to differ from a lot of other interpetations out there!!

Thanx all!!

Martin

[M Wallgren]

AFAIK

huh? didn´t get thatone <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

Well, yes and no!! I can think of a few here who could do a good job at the annual MMA event the local Kickboxing club arrange. With other MA guys with equal amount of training... win? maybe but at least get some good sparring...

thanks ...

Martin

[Jamie Fellrath]

Martin - AFAIK is an internet acronym for: As Far As I Know.

[david welch]

moved to new thread:
Structure for ringen sparring

So as to not derail thread.

[Dave Nathan]

[quote=M.Wallgren]Thank you! But I can´t take credit for that comment, it was Mike C. who said that, ![/quote]

I still stated that BJJ is still one of the more vital aspects of MMA.

What's clear here is that you don't understand what Ringen really is.

Indeed I don't, which is why I am speaking from a BJJ perspective.

First, MMA is what? A combination of strikes, takedowns, grappling and ground work for what is essentially submission or knock-out fighting.

MMA is not merely a mixture of striking, clinching, and groundwork. Those would qualify it as an individual art. MMA is defined by the fact that techniques may and will be borrowed from other styles according a fighter's needs in the ring/cage. It's a similar concept to Jeet Kun Do: Use the techniques which are most effective, while doing away with those that aren't.

Ringen includes all three previously mentioned combative ranges. There are strikes and kicks (and loads of defenses against strikes).

If Ringen includes all three ranges of combat along with unique techniques, why would'nt it be considered a unique traditional martial art? Now, if it borrows techniques from other styles in order to make its fighters more complete, that would qualify it as a form of MMA, in my humble opinion.

Finally, it incorporates groundwork on a level that is beyond what is found in beginner BJJ courses (I'm a vetran of several), but rather on-par or even identical to many "advanced" BJJ techniques.

You have taken BJJ classes? Under whom? This is a good hearted question BTW, I'm just curious ;p.

In the standard BJJ class, there is no special treatment to beginners or masters. For example, at my studio, we start the session with stretching and weight training. Next we get to sparring right away. During sparring, everyone will be fighting someone completely random, with no discrimination. The littlest whitebelt will face the largest brown belt, should that be who our instuctor wants to spar. Basic and advanced techniques are then drilled right off the bat, regardless of if you are a first timer or not. We drill from the most basic kimura lock, to the complicated sweep from gaurd to omoplata. So, you comparing Ringen to "beginner and advanced" level BJJ classes doesn't make much sense to me, as I've been to many BJJ studios, and this way of training present at my studio is almost identical. Everyone spars at full strength using all techniques they know from day 1. There is no "transitionary period." The locks and chokes are cranked full strength and speed, which is why you have to tap as soon you are caught. You have probably been to BJJ seminars, but I won't judge that, as there may be some BJJ studio that you have attended that deviates from the standard BJJ paradigm. Also, being a vetern of several BJJ courses is like saying that you're 3 days old, for a comparison. It took me 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 3 medals in competition to be promoted to blue belt, which is the first promotion after white. 2 months is lighting fast even so, it takes most people a year to earn their blue belt. I still have purple, brown, and black to go, under more stress for each belt, which I am more than happy to meet and exceed.

Also, could you provide me with an English translation of Ringen groundfighting techniques? I'd like to compare it to BJJ, and possibly put a few techniques into my repetoire should I find something suitable for myself.

The guard, mount, and rear mount are all positions that any kid who rough-houses knows.

But I'm betting none of them know how to scissor sweep from gaurd to mount ;p.

then you'd see some changes, and you'd have ringen in about 3 minutes (with "good" ringen after about 6 months).

Sorry for the lack of English comprehension, but please elaborate on this point. I can't quite get what you're trying to get accross, sorry <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />.

get a stun-gun (the handheld non-firing kind) and hide it in the uniform/gi/whatever of just one guy in the hall/dojo/whatever so that only he knows that he has it, but tell everyone else that someone has one. The change will be immense. Even in fights where the thing isn't present, principles of Ringen will begin to overtake much of what BJJ teaches, just because the threat of the fight going into "uncontrolled territory" is there.

Funny you should mention this. When we are doing gi sparring (we do no-gi as well), he will give one of the opponent's in every match a rubber tube which stands for a knife. What ends up happening, is that the guy with the tube usually gets a "killing blow" when the fight is stand up. However, once the fight gets to the ground, the person with the "knife" is almost always at a disadvantage, because his opponent will naturally take control of the knife-hand's wrist and use his other hand to crank the knife-hand's shoulder, or twist the wrist to force the tube out of the hand. The person with the knife is easier to get into a submission, because he only has one effective arm to use for base and defense. For example, last time we did "tube" sparring, I grabbed my opponent's (another blue belt) knife wrist, and threw my hip into his crotch for a crotch throw. From there, I landed in north-south position, with the knife hand pinned to the ground by my full weight press on his chest and arm. I transitioned to mount, pinning his hand the entire time, and pushed his right elbow (on the knife arm) accross my chest as I layed down on it, effectively making him hug himself with one arm. I stayed here until I could wrench the knife from him. After this, I grabbed his left elbow, and pushed him on his side, and slide under his back for back-mount, while I controlled his arms making him hug himself. I pinned his left arm to the ground with my left leg, and pulled his right arm straight into a straight armbar shoulder wrench, where I then throw my right leg over his head (so both legs are behind his head with his head directly underneath my butt). From here I arched my back to lock an armbar-shoulder wrench-leg crucifix. In English, his elbow was being bent the wrong direction and his shoulder was being twisted from its socket, all while the strength of my quadriceps is pushing his neck off his shoulders, tearing his trapezius muscles and pressure on his upper spine. He had to tap out verbally <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Considering this, the knife is a defininate advantage standing. But when you have a good grappler on top of you while you have one less arm to grapple with, the knife is a disadvantage which can be dealt with with basic techniques, that I don't think Ringen is required for.

One question: in typical Ringen instruction, is there full-contact, resistant sparring?